SCAPEGOAT CULT In a word Jehovah's Witnesses are a *scapegoat* cult,they exist and thrive on a supremacist tyrannical doctrine they they are superior and the one true religion.They have NO tolerance for dissent
The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible
by thirdwitness 1380 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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thirdwitness
As for AlanF's last long post about earthquakes etc. Sorry I will not be quoting the whole thing and refuting it. I doubt seriously that anyone even read it.
I will address the per capita question to show the ridiculousness of Alan's reasonings.
10 people were on a plane that crashed and all 10 people were killed. That is 100 percent on board was killed.
1000 people were on a plane that crashed and 999 were killed. That is only 99.9 percent.
Which plane crash would you say was the worst? Which plane crash would be most newsworthy? Jesus is talking about events that would be readily seen. Newsworthy events. An earthquake that kills 200,000 people in an area populated by 200 million people is much more newsworthy than an earthquake in an area that kills all 10 people living the area.
Get real and stop the mumbo jumbo.
Also do you disagree with this:
Deadliest earthquakes on record
Pos. Date Location Fatalities Magnitude Comments 1 January 23, 1556 Shaanxi, China 830,000 ~8 2 December 26, 2004 Off west coast northern Sumatra, Indonesia 283,100 9.0-9.3 Deaths from earthquake and tsunami. 3 July 27, 1976 Tangshan, China 255,000 (official) 7.5 Estimated death toll as high as 655,000. 4 August 9, 1138 Aleppo, Syria 230,000 5 December 22, 856+ Damghan, Iran 200,000 5 December 16, 1920 Ningxia-Gansu, China 200,000 8.6 Major fractures, landslides. 5 May 22, 1927 Tsinghai, China 200,000 7.9 Large fractures. 8 March 23, 893+ Ardabil, Iran 150,000 9 September 1, 1923 Kanto, Japan 143,000 7.9 Great Tokyo fire. 10 October 5, 1948 Ashgabat, Turkmenistan, USSR 110,000 7.3 Source: USGS http://neic.usgs.gov/neis/eqlists/eqsmosde.html
And if you want to expand the list past the top 10 and include all earthquakes that killed 50,000 or more:
1908 12 28 Italy, Messina 70000 to 100000
(estimated)7.2 Deaths from earthquake and tsunami. 1290 09 China, Chihli 100000 2005 10 08 Pakistan 80361 7.6 1667 11 Caucasia, Shemakha 80000 1727 11 18 Iran, Tabriz 77000 1932 12 25 China, Gansu 70000 7.6 1755 11 01 Portugal, Lisbon 70000 8.7 Great tsunami. 1970 05 31 Peru 66000 7.9 $530,000,000 damage, great rock slide, floods. 1935 05 30 Pakistan, Quetta 30000 to 60000 7.5 Quetta almost completely destroyed. 1693 01 11 Italy, Sicily 60000 1268 Asia Minor, Silicia 60000 1990 06 20 Western Iran 40000 to 50000 7.7 Landslides. 1783 02 04 Italy, Calabria 50000 6 out of 10 or 11 out of 23 of the deadliest earthquakes occured since 1914.
Do you disagree with this list from the U.S. Geological Survey site?
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Frank75
Thirdwitness: And both equal the days of Noah when people were living their everyday life taking no note of what Jehovah's servants were doing and saying. Then the flood came and swept them all away. A time period that lasted over 100 years.
What tricky propaganda. Noah and his immediate family are called “Jehovah’s Servants” are they? What is that supposed to convey?Gen 6: 9 Noah was a righteous man. He proved himself faultless among his contemporaries. Noah walked with the [true] God…. 18 And I do establish my covenant with you; and you must go into the ark, you and your sons and your wife and your sons’ wives with you. 19 And of every living creature of every sort of flesh, two of each, you will bring into the ark to preserve them alive with you. Male and female they will be.
There is no evidence that Noah spoke to anyone about it. The plan only called for the saving of these 8 people. If that is not true, then what scriptural proof do you offer?
Gen 7:1 After that Jehovah said to Noah: “Go, you and all your household, into the ark, because you are the one I have seen to be righteous before me among this generation.
Sure some people would have been curious about what Noah and family were doing, but this would have been localized not some global news event. Most would have done just as Jesus said,
Matt 24 : 38 For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; 39 and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away,
There are lots of quacks today who think they are prophets and are building spaceships (Stanley Theatre comes to mind) or living in the jungle or desert awaiting for a passing comet to take them home, and we are only peripherally aware of what they do or believe thanks to CNN.
Likewise for over 130 years JW’s have been preaching (distributing pamphlets….take a serious look at the simpson episode mentioned above) and yet they have touched such a small part of the earth.
Since leaving the JW’s I have struck up friendships with 100’s of “worldly” people. I have yet to come across more than one who just happened to know a JW girl in high school who has a clue of what you believe and are about. Most have never spoken to JW’s, and the few who have, simply accepted a pamphlet or brochure after a sales pitch at the door or on the street.
What you people really stand for and believe is a mystery….even to many publishers who told me when I was serving that they didn’t get what it was all about either.
If you are an honest JW and an elder you know what I relate is true if you have ever visited your brothers in their homes and allowed for open, honest and FRANK discussion.
Contrast that reality and the complicated end times theology that you keep pushing with the simple Gospel and the words of Paul:
(1 Corinthians 1:22-23) 22 For both the Jews ask for signs and the Greeks look for wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ impaled,. . . (1 Corinthians 2:2) 2 For I decided not to know anything among YOU except Jesus Christ, and him impaled.
Thirdwitness: Likewise today, for the most part people are living their everyday lives not taking any note of the days or presence of the Son of man and that Jesus is gathering his people into one ark or organization for survival of the impending destruction to be brought upon this wicked system.
Pure nonsense. There is no
Ezekiel recognized that what saved Noah and his family, was neither the ark or any “Organization of Jehovah’s Servants”, rather it was his own faith and righteousness.
(Ezekiel 14:20) even were Noah, Daniel and Job in the midst of it, as I am alive,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, ‘neither son nor daughter would they deliver; they themselves because of their righteousness would deliver their soul.’”
(Hebrews 11:7) By faith Noah, after being given divine warning of things not yet beheld, showed godly fear and constructed an ark for the saving of his household; and through this [faith] he condemned the world, and he became an heir of the righteousness that is according to faith.
Had anyone else alive at the time been worthy of salvation, God would have given them divine warning by reputable prophets who had been clearly sent by him. Not quacks who have blundered back and forth for over a century sputtering nonsense and providing no proof of the spectacular claims that they have made.
Frank75
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TD
Thirdwitness:
Do you disagree with this list from the U.S. Geological Survey site?
I don't disagree, but I would question whether that list is complete (Or intended to be.)
For example, these major (Where "Major" = Casualties 100K and above) earthquakes don't seem to appear in your list:
(Year, Location, Estimated Casualties)
1641 IRAN: DEHKWARGAN, TABRIZ 300,000
1662 CHINA 300,000
1669 SICILY 100,000
1721 IRAN: TABRIZ 100,000
1730 CHINA: CHIHLI 100,000
1730 JAPAN: HOKKAIDO 137,000
1731 CHINA: PEKING 100,000
1737 INDIA: CALCUTTA 300,000
1780 IRAN: TABRIZ 100,000
1850 CHINA 300,000 - 400,000
1908 ITALY: MESSINA/REGGIO 110,000
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thirdwitness
Frank75 said: What tricky propaganda. Noah and his immediate family are called “Jehovah’s Servants” are they? What is that supposed to convey?
I say, unbelievable! Is a reply to this even necessary?
Heb 12:1 So, then, because we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us,
Who was included in that cloud of Jehovah's witnesses?
Heb 11: 7 By faith Noah, after being given divine warning of things not yet beheld, showed godly fear and constructed an ark for the saving of his household; and through this [faith] he condemned the world, and he became an heir of the righteousness that is according to faith.
2 Peter 2: 5 and he did not hold back from punishing an ancient world, but kept Noah, a preacher of righteousness, safe with seven others when he brought a deluge upon a world of ungodly people;
I am going to have to stop answering ridiculous comments. Sorry, I just don't have the time. I think honest ones can easily see these kind of comments for what they are without anyone pointing it out.
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thirdwitness
TD, I see where you got this list from. From someone trying to disprove JWs. Can these be substantiated? By the way, the writer of the essay did have to admit this:
In view of the population increase it might seem only reasonable to expect that more people have died in earthquakes during our century than during earlier centuries.
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hillary_step
PmJ,
Beloved ones, this is now the second letter I am writing YOU , in which, as in my first one, I am arousing YOUR clear thinking faculties by way of a reminder, 2 that YOU should remember the sayings previously spoken by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through YOUR apostles. 3 For YOU know this first, that in the last days there will come ridiculers with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires 4 and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep [in death], all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning.” you come under this category.of not seeing the signs when there smacking you in the face.
ThirdWitness has never had the courage to answer this question, I wonder if you have.
Do you accept that the WTS has admitted that the Apostles Paul, Peter, James and John believed that they were living in the last days?
HS
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TD
Hi Thirdwitness,
Yes, the primary source is: Carl Olof Jonsson, Wolfgang Herbst, The Sign of the Last Days: When? Commentary Press, Atlanta, 1987 p. 80
This data, in turn was primarily taken from:
Robert A. Ganse, John B. Nelson, Catalog of Significant Earthquakes 2000 B.C. - 1979, Boulder, Colorado 1981 pp. 3-33
With these additional corroborative sources:
A. Imamura, Theoretical and Applied Seismology, Tokyo, 1937 pp. 140,202,204
N. N. Ambraseys, Revue pour l'etude des calamites, No 37, Geneve, December 1961, p. 18f
J.H. Latter, "Natural Disasters" Advancement of Science, June 1969, pp. 363, 370
N. N. Ambraseys, C.P. Melville, A History of Persian Earthquakes, Cambridge, 1982
A. Daly, Our Mobile Earth, New York & London 1926
A. T. Wilson, "Earthquakes in Persia," Bulletin of the School of Oriental Studies, London Institution, Vol VI (1930-32)
A. Sieberg, Handbuch der Geophysik (ed. Prof. B. Gutenberg), Vol IV, Leipzig 1932
James Cornell, The Great International Disaster Book, New York, 1979
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thirdwitness
Well, just for starters the one in 1737 INDIA: CALCUTTA 300,000 was most likely not an earthquakes but rather a typhoon, so says the US Geological survery.
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Frank75
Thirdwitness: Which plane crash would you say was the worst? Which plane crash would be most newsworthy? Jesus is talking about events that would be readily seen. Newsworthy events. An earthquake that kills 200,000 people in an area populated by 200 million people is much more newsworthy than an earthquake in an area that kills all 10 people living the area. Get real and stop the mumbo jumbo. Also do you disagree with this:
You completely miss the point of what we are trying to say. No matter how you push the numbers and statistics around it is impossible to gain any insights from the prevalence, size, lack of, newsworthy nature or any quantitative measure of any of the things mentioned there in Matt and Luke.
First Jesus never says that these are signs of his approach, coming or presence. He simple warned his followers that these events would be exploited by false prophets like Miller, Barbour, Russell and the Watchtower movement (and a host of others. Read the Gentile Times book. It isn't fair that the GB got to and even considered changing 1914 because of it, and you not reading it). In fact as I have pointed to you and you have ignored, Jesus rebuked Jews who looked for signs and called them wicked and adulterous.
Second, even if Jesus did change out of the blue his earlier comments and feelings about advance notice by means of signs, then all Alan is pointing out to you is that each century or generation since the death of Jesus could argue and did (See the Gentile Times Reconsidered) that their experience was the culmination of the 4 items mentioned, namely Great war, great earthquakes, famine and pestilence.
Likewise each generation has seen the expansion of Christianity. When the conquistadors brought “Great war, pestilence and famines” to the
The problem is that your signs do not stick out in any way over the last 20 centuries. In fact the 18th century would make a better candidate. Further the shear capacity of our age to capture, record, and communicate related data and information makes the limited data available from the past useless for making fair comparisons. Alan merely showed you that to say 30 million deaths in world war II to be something special is deceitful when you fail to tell your listener that similar losses from earlier wars touched just as many lives.
You ignored every point that levels your watchtowers prophetic significance when it comes to famines, disease and war. You don’t even give us the enjoyment of smashing to pieces the typical JW comeback about Cancer, Heart disease, diabetes and Aids!
Come on, that isn’t fair!!
Also the period of peace and stability that is far greater than anything mentioned in your so-called signs is ignored as well. None of us here who disagree with the JW view believe this relative peace will last forever. Any serious student of the past must realize that things can change quite rapidly at any moment by means of pestilence, famine and wars or other phenomenon such as climate change and geological events.
And when it does happen, these catastrophe’s will spawn ever more bell ringing calamity howlers like Jesus said would happen.
(Matthew 24:23-26) 23 “Then if anyone says to YOU, ‘Look! Here is the Christ,’ or, ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones. 25 Look! I have forewarned YOU. 26 Therefore, if people say to YOU, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; ‘Look! He is in the inner chambers,’ do not believe it.
I see YOU have responded to something I said. oooohhhh! I feel so special. Are you the one known as "Q"? Why aren't you at your meeting buddy?
You DF'd? Sorry, but that is usually who is left defending their WT invstments on these forums.
Frank75