The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness 1380 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • fullofdoubtnow
    fullofdoubtnow

    Of making many books there is no end, and much study wearies the body

    T - wit, in your case it's posts, not books, though your repetitive answers on this thread would have filled several books.

    You have said much, and yet said nothing of any consequence so far.

    I would like to ask you a question: I am aware that Jeremiah prophesied that the Jews would suffer 70 years of servitude, but where did he prophesy that Jerusalem would suffer 70 years of desolation? Please point me to the scripture, I don't have a bible here but can easily look it up on the net.

  • DannyHaszard
    DannyHaszard

    In a nutshell Jehovah's Witnesses R Millerites and thousands of non apostate scholarly works say so JW ARE AN ADVENTIST MILLERITE SPIN-OFF click for thousans links

    The Millerites: Armageddon (History Channel) 4 min clip

    modem (low bandwidth) version

    DSl/Cable (high bandwidth) version

    The History Channel say's so too.

    Danny Haszard Bangor Maine

  • thirdwitness
    thirdwitness

    Daniel 9:2 Daniel 9:2 :

    The New Living Translation: “Jerusalem must lie desolate for seventy years.”

    The Bible in Basic English: “the making waste of Jerusalem was to be complete, that is, seventy years.”

    Young's Literal Translation: “concerning the fulfilling of the wastes of Jerusalem -- seventy years”

    God's Word translation: “The LORD had told the prophet Jeremiah that Jerusalem would remain in ruins for 70 years.”

    The Good News Translation: “the seventy years that Jerusalem would be in ruins ”

    New Century Version: “Jerusalem would be empty ruins for seventy years.”

    Contemporary English Version: “Jerusalem will lie in ruins for seventy years.”

    In 2 Chronicles 36:20-21 2 Chronicles 36:20-21 it says King Nebuchadnezzar “carried off those remaining from the sword captive to Babylon, and they came to be servants to him and his sons until the royalty of Persia began to reign; to fulfill Jehovah’s word by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had paid off its Sabbaths. All the days of lying desolated [shamem] it kept sabbath, to fulfill seventy years.”

    According to the Theological Word Book of the Old Testament, the word shamem means, “to be desolated, be deflowered, be deserted”.

    Let us consult the other translations again:

    God's Word translation: “While it lay in ruins , the land had its 70 years of rest.”

    Contemporary English translation: “Judah was an empty desert , and it stayed that way for seventy years, to make up for all the years it was not allowed to rest.”

    New Life Version: “For the seventy years that the land was not being used , the Day of Rest was kept.”

    New International Reader's Version: “It rested . That deserted land wasn't farmed for a full 70 years.”

    New International Version (UK): “The land enjoyed its Sabbath rests ; all the time of its desolation it rested , until the seventy years were completed.”

    There is no reasonable doubt about the verses we have considered so far. They could not be more plain and clear in what they say. All the land, specifically including the capital city Jerusalem, would be a ruin, a deserted land, an empty desert, resting, not being used, desolate, a wasteland, a wilderness.

    There is more proof, let's go back to the prophecy of Jeremiah about this 70 year devastation. There he said “A desolate waste the whole land will become , and shall I not carry out a sheer extermination? ... Every city is left, and there is no man dwelling in them .” ( Jeremiah 4:27 , 29b Jeremiah 4:27, 29b ) “Be corrected, O Jerusalem , that my soul may not turn away disgusted from you; that I may not set you as a desolate waste, a land not inhabited .” ( Jeremiah 9:11 Jeremiah 9:11 ) So we can see that the land, including “Jerusalem”, and “every city”, is to be left without an inhabitant.

    Another part of the Bible, 2nd Chronicles, summarizes the whole 70 year period. There it says:

    “He [Nebuchadnezzar] burned the Temple of Jehovah, tore down the walls of Jerusalem, torched its palaces, and wiped away everything that was of any beauty.

    “Then he carried off everyone who was left to Babylon , where they served as slaves for him and his sons until the Medes came along and fulfilled the words of Jehovah through Jeremiah, and the land had observed its Sabbaths . For, during the seventy years that the land lay desolate, it was observing the Sabbath .

    “It was in the first year of Cyrus the king of Persia, after the fulfillment of the words of Jehovah through the mouth of Jeremiah, that Jehovah awakened the spirit of Cyrus and commanded him to send a written proclamation throughout his kingdom that said, ‘Cyrus the king of Persia says, All the kingdoms of the earth have been given to me by Jehovah the God of heaven, and He told me to build a Temple to Him in Jerusalem in Judea. Who of you are His people? His God Jehovah is now with him, so let him return to Jerusalem !’” – 2 Chronicles 36:20-23 2 Chronicles 36:20-23

    There is a smooth logical flow in the verses above. It tells us of the beginning and the end of the 70 years. First, it shows the city being destroyed and the last exiles being taken. Then when the “land lay desolate” (it is now truly desolate after Jerusalem being destroyed), it fulfilled its 70 years of Sabbath resting. The 70 years end after the Jews finally reinhabit the land.

  • fullofdoubtnow
    fullofdoubtnow

    Thankyou thirdwitness for that.

    As you may be aware, I am not a believer in the bible, but the reason I asked is because one of my neighbours, who is a BAC, stated that Jeremiah didn't prophecy that Jerusalem would lie desolate for 70 years, so I thought I'd ask if it did.

    She is trying to convert me and my bf to her viewpoint, not that there is any likelihood she will succeed, and professes to know the scriptures well. Obviously, not that well, it will be a pleasure to point her to your post. I have no idea why she made the assertion re Jeremiah in the first place, BAC's don't usually know the OT that well.

    Thankyou again

    fodn

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    ThirdWitness,

    Hilarystep has been trying to hi jack this thread ever since it began and talk about another subject.

    Prove it.

    Why? Simple. Hilarystep cannot argue with clear Bible scriptures.

    Prove it.

    Hilary step knows that the Bible clearly shows the 7 times ended in 1914, the presence or days of the Son of man then began, no longer was Jerusalem under the feet of the nations but it was reversed and then the nations and enemies of Christ were put as a footstool under his feet. Christ has gathered up his willing military force of Kingdom preachers and went subduing in the midst of his enemies.

    Prove it.

    You know one thing about me ThirdWitness and that is that you have sidestepped, or ignored every single question I have asked you. These questions have all been on-topic, but they unhinge your rotation of preaching. The Preterist / Partial Preterist view answer all of the questions you try to raise to defend WTS dogma, but of course, you admit ignorance of this viewpoint, so how would you know? Being uneducated in your knowledge of theology helps you in defending this dogma, as it requires a lack of education to be so confident about so little, but please do not think that any lurkers are taken by your constant gibbering. Your only two defenders on this thread have offered nothing of theological value, but they hang around your dressing room with flushed cheeks, like groupies on heat.

    You are a complete amateur in the subject on which you seek to edcucate others, but of course this is nothing new for JW's, who have a century long history of peddling bufoonary from door to door, including at one stage that the transfusion of blood also transfused elements of the personality of the donor, that organ transplants were forbidden by scripture, numerous dates interpreted, with just as much confidence as your own on this thread, for the 'end of the system', that the Communistic block of nations represented the 'King Of The North' spoken of by Daniel and would be a going concern when the 'System Of Things' ended. etc. etc............etc......etc.etc.....................etc....etc.

    You admit that there are numerous interpretations for the scriptures you quote in this thread, but that the WTS has the correct interpretation. Now, if you wish us to take seriously the WTS interpretation of these scriptures you are duty bound to answer this question that you have chosen to ignore.

    Can you provide a list of prophetic interpretations of the Bible, unique to the WTS, that have actually come true the past sixty years?

    If you are unable to sipply this list this thread should to all intents and purposes end now, as your credibility as a representative of the WTS is completely demolished, and together with it the WTS own claim to be the only true intepreters of Scripture on this planet.

    Are you up to the challenge, ThirdWitness and friends? If not you have no right to continue this thread.

    HS

  • Frank75
    Frank75

    More rhetoric by Thirdwitness as he ignores AlanF's deflation of his supposed signs of Matt. Likewise he ignores my post dealing with Jesus view of sign seekers and false prophets like the JW's at Matt 12:38 and Luke 21:8.

    Marg Simpson said in the JW/Fundamental Christian parody episode "Thank God it's Doomsday", "God won't bring the apocalypse without giving us some sort of sign first, like all the dogs getting on a space ship". (A must see by the way)

    alt

    Additionally he goes right back to Watchtower time calculations based on narrow points of interpretation/view that have been constantly changing over the years and recently since the 70's have been subjct to 2/3 majority vote by their Governing Body (Greek: Sanhedrin)

    Look at what your own JW religion used to teach by way of joining and combining as well as twisting scriptures to mean something that they did not, and eventually was rejected quietly over time.

    The Finished Mystery (book, 1917 edition) p.230

    [Regarding: Revelation 14:20]

    By the space of a thousand and [six] TWO hundred furlongs.– This can not be interpreted to refer to the 2100 mile battle line of the world war. A furlong or stadium is not a mile and this is without the city whereas the battle line is within the city. See Rotherham’s translation.

    A stadium is 606 English ft,; 1200 stadii are, mi., 137.9

    The work on this volume was done in Scranton, Pa. As fast as it was completed it was sent to the Bethel. Half of the work was done at an average distance of 5 blocks from the Lackawanna station and the other half at a distance of 25 blocks. Blocks in Scranton are 10 to the mile. Hence the average distance to the station is 15 blocks, or 1.5 mi.

    The mileage from Scranton to Hoboken Terminal is shown in time tables as 143.8 and this is the mileage charged to passengers, but in 1911, at an expense of $12,000,000, the Lackawanna Railroad completed its famous cut-off, saving 11 miles of the distance. From the day the cut-off was completed the trainmen have been allowed 11 miles less than the time table shows, or a net distance of 132.8 [mi.].

    Hoboken Ferry to Barclay Street Ferry, New York, is 2.0 [mi.].

    Barclay Street Ferry to Fulton Ferry, New York, is 4,800 feet of 0.9 [mi.].

    Fulton Ferry, New York, to Fulton Ferry, Brooklyn, is 2000 feet or 0.4 [mi.].

    Fulton Ferry, Brooklyn, to Bethel, is 1,485 feet or 0.3 [mi.].

    Shortest distance from place where the winepress was trodden by the Feet Members of the Lord, Whose Guidance and help alone made this volume possible. (John 6:60, 61; Matt. 20:11.) mi., 137.9

    The above shows why it is just wrong to try to twist the scriptures to point in a secret direction only known by a few who then elevate themselves above their brothers and beat them with it. It just is not sound and has nothing to do with the good news preached by the Christ.

    Finally, throwing mud at people who believe in the Trinity (or some derivative), hell or other so-called "Pagan belief" is nonsensical. JW's including the Thirdwitness continuum must admit that if the Watchtower came out in favor of any of those presently rejected beliefs, concepts or doctrines tomorrow (for example the trinity), that they would just simply accept it, come back to this forum and drop it from their list of "vomit" references.

    This is exactly what happened with the teaching regarding the sheep and the goats. After teaching this unchristian concept of judging people by their reaction to tripe published in the Watchtower, the 2/3 majority in Brooklyn decided to go back to the "vomitous" concept that has long been a tenet of Christendom, namely that Christ is the one who makes this separation on his timetable.

    My invitation is still open to you. Reveal who you are and what congregation you are in. What have you to hide?

    Frank75

  • Fisherman
    Fisherman

    AS In response to your commnets about proof. I did not bring up anything about wts doctrines on 1914. I do not know why you brought that up in your comment regarding my post on conclusive proof. The references you cited do not establish that conclusively either. While God was sitting on his throne, as universal sovereigm, and having all authority, Jesus taught his followers to pray "..let your kingdom come" future. By this, it can also be said that even if Jesus sat on God's throne after his ascencion does not mean that he began to rule or that his kingdom has begun. "Jehovah has become king." that scripture did not come to pass in full when it was uttered and yet, God was sitting on his throne at that time. COJ makes an interesting observation on Jesus beginning to rule as king in the 1st century. I was almost convinced from his arguments aginst Bible interpretation of the wts on this. I am not sold because the book of REV seeems to show jesus' kingdom yet into the future. But even if the kingdon was not set up in the 1st century, that does not mean that it was set up in 1914 either.

  • czarofmischief
    czarofmischief

    Hm.

    Allow me to make a point. I haven't read this whole thread - 48 pages of circular debate is quite dizzying. But two themes that the thirdwitness (BTW: are you inserting yourself into the Bible's prophecy of the two witnesses with this avatar?) hasn't answered are this:

    1.) Why is 1914 so important to you? Could your faith in God not withstand the shock if this precious date was swept away? Or have you built your faith on a real rock of eternal principles, morality, justice and love? What if the Bible was suddenly proven to be a purely human document? Is your relationship with God strong enough for that? Do you really know your God as well as you think? "Let God be found true, though EVERY MAN a liar proves to be." What would you do with your life if you realized suddenly that you had spent it pursuing a phantom, and had ecouraged others to do the same.

    2.) What about Jesus' warning not to follow after those who point to things like earthquakes and natural disasters as signs of his coming? They are NOT the sign of his coming. Matthew and Luke make that VERY clear. No, his arrival is sudden, unexpected, and universal, like a flash of sheet lightning.

    CZAR

  • thirdwitness
    thirdwitness

    AlanF's words in italics. So at this point I want to see if these two JW defenders can quit being lukewarm, avoid being vomited out of Jesus' mouth, and tell us precisely, in no uncertain terms: When were the events in question in the scriptures that I quoted and commented upon fulfilled, if not very soon after Jesus' death? If not soon after Jesus' death, what scriptural proof can they provide?

    Here they are:

    "I say to YOU men, From henceforth YOU will see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming on the clouds of heaven." (Matthew 26:64)

    "YOU persons will see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming with the clouds of heaven." (Mark 14:62)

    "From now on the Son of man will be sitting at the powerful right hand of God." (Luke 22:69) I have provided tons of scriptural proof. Heb 10:13 and Psalms 110 being the ultimate. No where in the scriptures quoted does this pinpoint Jesus sitting down at the right hand of God as being equivalent to coming on the clouds. In fact, to the contrary, Revelation 1:9 written after 33CE shows that Jesus coming on the clouds at Armageddon when every eye will see him is a future event long after 33CE. Daniel 7:13, 14 also shows his coming on a cloud and gaining kingdom and power takes place in heaven and is at the time of the small horn. I have explained all of this in great detail.

    "All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth." (Matthew 28:18) This has been so thoroughly explained. Even those who claim that Jesus received power upon his going to heaven in 33CE cannot explain how he said he had received all authority while still on earth before going to heaven. Unless you use reasonableness and other scriptures to show exactly what Jesus meant.

    "For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every [other] name, so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." (Philippians 2:9-11)

    Because the passage in Philippians uses language virtually identical to that in Daniel 7:13, 14 to describe Jesus' exalted and supreme position as ruler over everything, how can these JW defenders explain that the events described in Daniel were not fulfilled shortly after Jesus' resurrection? Let them explain to their readers exactly how it is that the events described in Daniel, according to their view, were fulfilled beginning in 1914 rather than shortly after Jesus' resurrection.

    Sorry, but I do not see that Phil 2 is virtually identical to Daniel 7. Jesus was exalted to a superior position when he went to heaven of course. But there are oodles of scriptures that show that he would receive a special kingship as ruler of God's kingdom later. I have just shown them above. Since neither one of them has attempted as yet to do this, it will astound readers if either of them manages to do it now. I am astounded that you keep repeating nonsense over and over. You are the one who has not attempted to explain the Matt 24 and Luke 17 parallel. You are the one that cannot explain how Jehovah began to rule as king in Rev 11:17 or how Jesus received kingship in Rev 11:15 or how Jesus received kingship in Daniel 7 at the time of the small horn or how Jesus was still waiting for his enemies to be placed as a footstool some 30 years after his going to heaven or how Daniel 2 tells of God's kingdom being put in place at the time of the end of the last world power or how Ezekiel 21 and Daniel 4 are not the exact same stories or how the days of Noah or like the days/parousia of the Son of man. Oh yeah, and as Hillary_Step mentioned, since they both seem to consider W. E. Vine a supreme authority on the meaning of Greek words, how do they reconcile Vine's description with their claims? And how about relating these claims to the sub-definition given in Bauer's Lexicon (3rd edition, p. 784, def. 5)? How about you doing that for us since you claim Jesus received all authority while on earth but then went to heaven and received further kingship and authority. Why would we need to explain the word when the Bible explains it for us and you have to use the same explanations or else you are proved wrong? You AlanF have been soundly defeated and you do not have the humility to admit it. Nor do most of your friends. You cannot answer any of the problems that I have put before you above. Your theory is unscriptural undeniably.

  • PMJ2
    PMJ2

    the bible also says this

    Beloved ones, this is now the second letter I am writing YOU , in which, as in my first one, I am arousing YOUR clear thinking faculties by way of a reminder, 2 that YOU should remember the sayings previously spoken by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through YOUR apostles. 3 For YOU know this first, that in the last days there will come ridiculers with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires 4 and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep [in death], all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning.” you come under this category.of not seeing the signs when there smacking you in the face.

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