The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness 1380 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • thirdwitness

    And auldsoul, remember this:

    When did Jesus receive 'all authority' as recorded in Matt 28:18?

    If you say while on earth then the question is how then did he receive kingship and power in Daniel 7:13,14 after going to heaven and coming before Jehovah?

    If you say while on earth then How did he go secure kingly power in heaven according to Luke 19 when he already had 'all authority before going to heaven?

    If you answer after he went to heaven then how is it that Jesus said he had 'all authority' while still on earth? Your whole argument that 'all authority means all authority' has just gone up in smoke. You cannot use that argument to disprove JWs because obviously Jesus did not receive his kingship until after going to heaven. Therefore, the question is when did he receive kingship of God's Messianic Kingdom? Was it in 33CE immediately after going to heaven or was it 1914.

    When did God make his enemies a stool for his feet? Was it when he sat down at the right hand of God in 33CE after going to heaven?

    Paul gives the answer: Heb 10:12 But this [man] offered one sacrifice for sins perpetually and sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from then on awaiting until his enemies should be placed as a stool for his feet.

    Now, opposers of JWs, you have a problem. Hebrews was written in 61CE almost 30 years after Jesus went to heaven. Jesus sat down at the right hand of God after going to heaven in 33CE but he still had to wait until his enemies should be placed as a stool for his feet. When did that happen? It was after 61CE for sure for Paul said he was still waiting.

    Here is another problem you have. Revelation was written in 96CE. Some, like Auldsoul, say a little before that. But at any rate it was written long after Jesus went to heaven in 33CE. Revelation was given to John "to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place." So it was about future events that would take place long after 33CE.

    Now go to Revelation 11:15-17:

    15 And the seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.”

    16 And the twenty-four elders who were seated before God upon their thrones fell upon their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying: “We thank you, Jehovah God, the Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and begun ruling as king.

    Huh oh. Another big problem for opposers of JWs. How can this be? How is it that Jehovah begans ruling as king sometime after 33CE, even sometime after 61CE, even sometime after 96CE? What about that argument that Jehovah has always been king and could never begin to rule as king at some later point in time? What about that argument that Jesus was given 'all authority' therefore he could not have begun to rule at a later date after 33CE? Poof! It just went up in smoke.

    The fact is that all of Revelation takes place in the Lord's day for John said, " 10 By inspiration I came to be in the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a strong voice like that of a trumpet, 11 saying: “What you see write..."

    So now it becomes fact that Jehovah began to rule thru Christ as His King in the Lord's day sometime after his going to heaven in 33CE. The question then becomes when is the Lord's day? And this question the Bible answers in Matthew 24 when Jesus answered, "What will be the sign of your parousia and the conclusion of the system of things?" Additionally the tree dream pinpoints the time when Jehovah would once again began ruling as King as respects his sovereignty towards the earth. All evidence points to 1914.

  • Kenneson

    Oh, I see. So, when Matt. 24:14 says the good news of the kingdom will be preached in ALL the inhabited earth for a witness to ALL the nations, it only means "some." That should be a relief to Jehovah's Witnesses. Does that mean they can let up on the preaching work?

    And since it was not yet 1914, what was the significance of Jesus telling people in his day these words? Was it therefore unnecessary for Jesus' servants to preach the kingdom in the first century?

  • AlanF

    thirdwitness wrote:

    : HA HA HA. So you can't answer because you have contradicted yourself to the max.

    Your hypocrisy is exceeded only by your hubris.

    You've ignored around 15 of my posts in the past several days. You've ignored dozens in the past several weeks. You've ignored 90% to 95% of everything even in the few posts you've responded to.

    Now you actually have gall to say this, when I made it quite clear that the ONLY reason I would not respond is that you have a great deal of catching up to do.

    Really, thirdwitness, I'm so glad that you've come on this board. You're far and away the best witness to what the cult mindset of Jehovah's Witnesses does to a person.

    I used to think that Robert King, aka "You Know" and "E-Watchman", held the grand title for "Braindead JW". But you've exceeded him by far.

    : The only explanation that you will probably give is that the Bible is not inspired and it contradicts itself.

    Actually this brings up an interesting point. You keep bringing up Revelation, as if this phantasmagorical vision actually has relevance to today. I certainly think that it had relevance for some 1st century Christians, but certain things in it prove without doubt that it has nothing to do with events today.

    Suppose I claimed that animals were now killing far more people than ever before. Would you believe it? Certainly not because of any information that I might bring to bear. Indeed, the very concept is ridiculous on its face. Yet that is precisely what Jehovah's Witnesses claim. Observe:

    Revelation 6:5-8: 5 And when he opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say: “Come!” And I saw, and, look! a black horse; and the one seated upon it had a pair of scales in his hand. 6 And I heard a voice as if in the midst of the four living creatures say: “A quart of wheat for a de·nar´i·us, and three quarts of barley for a de·nar´i·us; and do not harm the olive oil and the wine.” 7 And when he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say: “Come!” 8 And I saw, and, look! a pale horse; and the one seated upon it had the name Death. And Ha´des was closely following him. And authority was given them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with a long sword and with food shortage and with deadly plague and by the wild beasts of the earth.

    If the various horrors visited upon mankind in this vision apply to today, then it follows that today a far greater number of people die "by the wild beasts of the earth" than ever before.

    But that claim is beyond ridiculous. It flies in the face of facts.

    So it goes with the rest of your and the Watchtower Society's application of Revelation to today.

    : By saying you're like teflon are you saying that your interpretations have gone to the pot?

    Only a simpleton like you could fail to understand what I said. I said rather clearly that the bullshit you're spewing like a manure spreader will not stick to the intelligent people on this board.

    In closing, I would like to quote some words from the eminent science fiction writer Robert Heinlein, who was almost prescient in his criticism of the Fundamentalist religious experience:

    The most preposterous notion that homo sapiens has ever dreamed up is that the Lord God of creation, shaper and ruler of all the universes, wants the saccharine adoration of his creatures, can be swayed by their prayers, and becomes petulant if he does not receive this flattery. Yet this absurd fantasy, without a shred of evidence to bolster it, pays all the expenses of the oldest, largest, and least productive industry in all history.


  • crazyblondeb


    Do you remember a poster from another board named "aliveinchrist"???

    AlanF- he did speak highly of you!


  • thirdwitness

    AlanF is so intelligent and scholarly. AlanF reminds me of Luke 10:21: I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have carefully hidden these things from wise and intellectual ones, and have revealed them to babes. Yes, O Father, because to do thus came to be the way approved by you. So, AlanF and Auldsoul, dare you answer, when did Jesus become king of God's heavenly Messianic Kingdom? When did Jehovah begin ruling through Jesus as king of God's kingdom? Was it 33CE? If so, Was it before he went to heaven or after? Was it after John wrote Revelation? When did Jesus get the crown? Was it 33CE when he was given all authority on earth? Or was it after he was given all authority on earth then he went up to heaven and came on a cloud and appeared before Jehovah as told in Daniel 7:13,14 and received rulership and power? Or was it after Revelation was written when in the future he would receive a crown as Rev 6 shows? Or was it as recorded in Rev 11 and 12 which were prophesying events that would take place after 33CE when the 'kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of the Lord and of his Christ'? Or was it before Revelation 11 where it said that Jehovah has taken His great power and begun ruling as king? Was it before his enemies were placed as a stool for his feet or after? Did he become king of God's kingdom before 61CE while still waiting for his enemies to be placed as a stool or not? In other words, was he already king of God's kingdom in 33CE still waiting for his enemies to be placed as a stool for his feet in 61CE as Paul said. Your beliefs are very confusing and contradictory.

  • crazyblondeb

    Do you remember a poster from another board named "aliveinchrist"


  • greendawn

    I agree that the last days began in the days of the apostles and continue until the present, they talked as if they were already living in them, the final days did not begin in 1914 but much earlier.

  • AlanF

    [Edited ]

  • zagor

    is something wrong with me or is thirdwitness d eliberately ignoring my questions???

  • abbagail

    I only could read thru page 7, so I missed, what, 60-some pages?

    Anyhoooo, if one lets go of the WT-contrived entangled interpretations (which includes their Replacement Theology) from their minds and looks elsewhere, you'll find several much more REASONABLE explanations. Here just one for starters -- with a nice little chart to make it even easier to comprehendo.


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