The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness 1380 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

badboy

OVER 21,000 VIEWS AND 2,100 POSTS LATER,KEEP THEM COMING FOLKS
plmkrzy

TW you say this is obviously speaking about Jesus?
:At Revelation 19:11-13, “And I saw the heaven opened, and, look! a white horse. And the one seated upon it is called Faithful and True, and he judges and carries on war in righteousness. 12 His eyes are a fiery flame, and upon his head are many diadems. He has a name written that no one knows but he himself, 13 and he is arrayed with an outer garment sprinkled with blood, and the name he is called is The Word of God.”
Why are you not paying attention to how this scripture reads?
Mr Anderson

Hello everyone . I havnt posted here before at least for along time . I would like to say that arguing with 3W is a waste of time . He thinks he is correct and that wont change at least it wont be changed by us . As soon as anyone engages with him then that is his victory . Dont take the bate is what I say . There is more than one way to view the 607 debate and absolute supporters of the WT will only view it one way . Pointless in arguing over it . The fact is 1914 is wrong and that is what this is all about . Many ways to prove that and 607 is just one of them . God doesnt requite us to be geniouses in order to find the truth on this subject and 3w is a very clever man let no one say he isnt but as regards other qualitys he may be lacking in those . God doesnt want us to be angry but to get on with worshiping him . 607 and 1914 only distract away from this goal .
stevenyc

Mr Anderson,
First off welcome to JWD.
I disagree with the essence of your post. You are correct in saying that thirdwitness will not budge in his (their) position, however, with 21,000 views so far this thread is a witness to the many Jehovah's Witnesses that secretly read it.
The beautiful thing is that the very title of the thread entices bible believers to read. And, what they find out is that if you only use the bible, and not an Adventist rendition, the watchtower's doctrine is seen as ludicrous and made-up.
Then it makes people wonder, 'what else have they made up?'
steve
Mr Anderson

Thanks for the welcome . Well giving people the benafit of the doubt i would say that they may have made things up or they may have been misled and we know who likes to mislead . At any rate they are wrong on some things including 1914 but the bible indicates thet we only see though a glass darkly . All faiths have things wrong with them . Jehovah will sort this out in his due time but the only way for it not to hurt as much when Jehovah does this is to be humble . Those who think they are always correct or have the one true faith are going to be hard hit when Jehovah hits hard . It will be the only way Jehovah can give the stumbled ones a chance to return to a place of safety .
AuldSoul

Revelation 19 confirms who the rider of the white horse is. If you can show us a scripture that proves that someone else might be riding on a white horse then by all means please show us. Since you brought it up and so you want claim that I didn't answer you let me go into great detail for you.

Oh, yes. Please do go into "greater detail" for me. I didn't claim you didn't answer me regarding this point, I hadn't raised it before. If you are too thick to comprehend which points I claimed you didn't answer after I posted a series of links to each of them, I wonder how cogent your "detail" on the white horse will be.
Who is the rider? Why does he have a bow and is given a crown? When does the ride begin and for what purpose?
(1) Who is the rider? We don't know. We also don't know what the rider symbolizes. In context this rider must symbolize something; each of the other riders symbolizes something.
(2) Why is he given a bow? Technically, the verses don't say he was given a bow. But I will assume you meant, "Why does he HAVE a bow?" We don't know.
(3) Why is he given a crown? We don't know.
(4) How did he get the bow and crown? We don't know.
(5) What do the bow and crown symbolize? We don't know.
(6) When does the ride begin? We don't know.
(7) For what purpose does the ride begin? To conquer, and complete conquest.
(8) To conquer and conquest WHAT, exactly? We don't know.
You see, there are many more questions that need to be answered than the few you asked. I could probably come up with 10 more. From the description given, this could very well depict Ghengis Khan who rode a white steed and was from among the tribes that perfected the use of mounted archers in warfare. Here is where an understanding of the historical progression of technology relative to warfare is an aid.
Mind you, I am not saying the rider of the white horse was Ghengis Khan. I am saying the description fits, and therefore cannot be ruled out. His horsemanship and skill with archery was the stuff of legend. And, rumour has it, he was quite the conqueror. He completed the conquest he set out for.
It is quite apparent from the description that this is none other than Jesus Christ. He is the rider of this white horse. If we allow the Bible to interpret itself we can only conclude that the rider of the white horse in Revelation 6 must also be Jesus Christ and no one else. Is there any Biblical proof that shows otherwise?
Not true. The rider in chapter 6 did not have a sword protruding from its mouth, had only one diadem, nor an army of OTHER beings riding white horses.
Obviously the rider being given a crown means that he is receiving authority or kingship.
Obviously. However, chapter 6 does not say from whence the authority or kingship came, nor the purpose beyond the overly vague "conquest." It doesn't even suggest what it is that would be conquered.
From these scriptures we can only conclude that Jesus begins his ride by gathering his chosen ones together. That is how his conquering and subduing in the midst of his enemies begins.
We haven't yet concluded that Jesus is the rider of the white horse and already you are leaping to how he began the ride. Conquering is subduing by force, there is no meaning of conquer that is without the connotation of the application of force. Is that what Jesus is currently doing? Where is the evidence of that? There are, however, other methods of subduing that do not require force. Subduing can involve nothing more dramatic than persuasion.
As Peter explains in Acts 2, Psalm 110 began to have its fulfillment at Pentecost 33 CE. Paul also applied the exact same text in the exact same way. Go look for it. Jesus began to reign in the midst of his enemies over willing subjects at least by Penetecost 33 CE. He began to gather his chosen ones together at Penetcost 33 CE, not in 1914. Not even JWs teach that he began to gather the chosen together in 1914. If you insist on that opinion you are speaking against the published doctrine of Jehovah's Witnesses.
The bow is a long-range weapon. It indicates that his enemies are still far off.
Scythians pioneered the use of mounted archery in war. The concept was not unknown to First Century peoples, but your description of a mounted archer's role in a battle is silly. The mounted archer does not use the bow as a long-range weapon. A long-bowman would be a ranged unit, but would not fire from a horse. Mounted archers used relatively small very stiff recurve bows with very short range (fast drop rate) and high initial velocity to penetrate leather armor or splinter into plate or chain mail.
Again, your lack of understanding about the history of warfare technologies has forced you to make a stupid assumption that history proves incorrect.
Do you see that Israel, God's people, is likened to a polished arrow? And Jesus is concealing that arrow in his quiver.
Okay, so now you believe that Jesus is Jehovah? You really are an apostate! The verses you quoted show Jehovah concealing the arrow in HIS quiver. Not that your unfounded assumption about the connection to Revelation 6 has any bearing on reality whatsoever. I just thought it was odd that you equate Jehovah to Jesus as though...well, as though they are the same person. Very interesting. You know, many religions believe as you do regarding that particular point. I am surprised that you believe that way, however.
All in all, I am disappointed in your lackluster response. You strung together many concepts that are only joined to one another by the imaginary threads in your mind. I am surprised you believe Jesus is Jehovah and that you apparently believe that Jesus began to gather the chosen ones in 1914. Neither of these is a doctrine of Jehovah's Witnesses and teaching either as truth would get an unrepentant JW disfellowshipped.
But at least you responded to the points I raised instead of choosing some other question to respond to. Now, let's see if you can manage the three questions about the Association to the UN/DPI with better facility.
AuldSoul
AuldSoul

thirdwitness,
When did Jesus receive 'all authority' as recorded in Matt 28:18?
If you say while on earth then the question is how then did he receive kingship and power in Daniel 7:13,14 after going to heaven and coming before Jehovah?
If you say while on earth then How did he go secure kingly power in heaven according to Luke 19 when he already had 'all authority before going to heaven?
Yes, I remember. I also remember the very careful and detailed answer I gave you the first time. Do you remember?
You allow for only two possibilities, but there is another one. The first person who saw Jesus after he was resurrected was apparently Mary Magdelene. He told her he had not yet ascended to the Father.
John 20:11-18
11 Mary, however, kept standing outside near the memorial tomb, weeping. Then, while she was weeping, she stooped forward to look into the memorial tomb 12 and she viewed two angels in white sitting one at the head and one at the feet where the body of Jesus had been lying. 13 And they said to her: “Woman, why are you weeping?” She said to them: “They have taken my Lord away, and I do not know where they have laid him.” 14 After saying these things, she turned back and viewed Jesus standing, but she did not discern it was Jesus. 15 Jesus said to her: “Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you looking for?” She, imagining it was the gardener, said to him: “Sir, if you have carried him off, tell me where you have laid him, and I will take him away.” 16 Jesus said to her: “Mary!” Upon turning around, she said to him, in Hebrew: “Rab·bo'ni!” (which means “Teacher!”) 17 Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’” 18 Mary Mag'da·lene came and brought the news to the disciples: “I have seen the Lord!” and that he said these things to her.
During the forty days before his public ascension he must have done so, because (1) nothing prevents that as a possibility, and (2) he told his disciples that he had received all authority in heaven and on earth, (3) he had Mary pass the message along that he was ascending to his Father, instead of telling them himself when he saw them.
You see, thirdwitness, you are locked into your way of thinking and it blinds you to other possibilities. I do not (any longer) intentionally cripple my thinking ability and can allow for a possibility that doesn't make Jesus a liar. Your beliefs make Jesus a liar. Mine do not. I believe mine are more in keeping with what the Bible says about Jesus, as a person. I don't think, Jesus was a liar. Do you, thirdwitness?
Now, I gave this answer in a much longer form once before. And I asked you questions about it. You did not respond. This is the second time I have responded to this same post. When will you respond to my questions to you?
(1) Did Jesus lie when he told his disciples that he had been given all authority in heaven and on earth?
(2) If not, when did he receive all authority in heaven and on earth?
I know these are uncomfortably direct questions. But I hope you will honor them with uncomfortably direct answers. Given your track record here, I am confident that my hopes will go unrealized.
AuldSoul
thirdwitness

Auldsoul ask 2 questions:
(1) Did Jesus lie when he told his disciples that he had been given all authority in heaven and on earth?
(2) If not, when did he receive all authority in heaven and on earth?
I have answered these questions and you have ignored the answer. You also ignored Death of the Pixies.
1. No, not when you look into the Bible to understand what he meant.
2. He received all authority over the congregation. That is why he follows his statement of 'All authority has been given...' by 'Go therefore and make disciples.' Now I will ask you some questions:
1. When Jesus said 'all authority' did he mean that he had all authority over everything and everyone?
2. When Jesus said he was given all authority was he given authority over Jehovah? Does all mean all?
3. Since Jesus received 'all authority' in 33CE how is it that the prophecy of Revelation written long after 33CE says, "“Now have come to pass ...the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ,."? Didn't all authority of Christ come to pass in 33CE?
4. Furthermore, how is it that Rev 11: 15 says: And the seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.” Didn't this already take place in 33CE when Christ was given 'all authority'? Wasn't the kingdom of the world already the kingdom of Christ since he had 'all authority.'
5. How is it that Jesus went to heaven and came before Jehovah as recorded at Daniel 7:13,14 in 33CE when the little horn that would become great had not yet arrived on the world scene as shown would be the case at this time in Daniel 7?
6. How is it that Paul said that Jesus was still waiting for Jehovah to put his enemies under his feet in Heb 10:13 if Jesus had already received 'all authority'? If a person has all authority then he does not need anyone to put his enemies under his feet for him, does he?
7. How is it in Luke 19 that Jesus went to a distant land to secure kingly power which the Bible said he 'eventually' secured and then returned after securing that kingly power and rewarded and punished his slaves? Did this happen in 33CE? Did he travel to a distant land (heaven) privately after his ressurection and 'eventually' secure kingly power in a couple of days, then returned to earth and appeared to the disciples and then returned to heaven before onlookers without rewarding his slaves and punishing his enemies? Are you saying that 'after a long time' as recorded in Matt 25:19 of a parallel illustration means only a few days? You see, auldsoul, you are locked into your way of thinking and it blinds you that JWs are right. Your beliefs make the Bible contradictory. Mine do not. I believe mine are more in keeping with what the Bible says. I don't think the Bible is contradictory. Do you, auldsoul? I know these are uncomfortably direct questions. But I hope you will honor them with uncomfortably direct answers. Given your track record here, I am confident that my hopes will go unrealized. That is at least I am confident that your answers will not be reasonable, logical, or scriptural and could even involve Ghengis Khan?
thirdwitness

As for auldsouls post above which included these remarks:
1) Who is the rider? We don't know. We also don't know what the rider symbolizes. In context this rider must symbolize something; each of the other riders symbolizes something.

(2) Why is he given a bow? Technically, the verses don't say he was given a bow. But I will assume you meant, "Why does he HAVE a bow?" We don't know.

(3) Why is he given a crown? We don't know.

(4) How did he get the bow and crown? We don't know.

(5) What do the bow and crown symbolize? We don't know.

(6) When does the ride begin? We don't know.

(7) For what purpose does the ride begin? To conquer, and complete conquest.

(8) To conquer and conquest WHAT, exactly? We don't know.

You see, there are many more questions that need to be answered than the few you asked. I could probably come up with 10 more. From the description given, this could very well depict Ghengis Khan who rode a white steed and was from among the tribes that perfected the use of mounted archers in warfare. Here is where an understanding of the historical progression of technology relative to warfare is an aid.

Mind you, I am not saying the rider of the white horse was Ghengis Khan. I am saying the description fits, and therefore cannot be ruled out. His horsemanship and skill with archery was the stuff of legend. And, rumour has it, he was quite the conqueror. He completed the conquest he set out for. end of quote.

Me: It is clear that some people will say and believe anything as long as it doesn't agree with JWs. How ridiculous can you get? Really, does anyone take this seriously?
thirdwitness

Mr Anderson, You know what is a funny thing. You say you are one of Jehovah's Witnesses and yet rather than siding with a fellow JW you cast your lot in with apostates who don't believe the Bible is inspired and some who don't even believe Jehovah is the true God.
Are you friends with Jehovah's people or Jehovah's enemies?
Think about that for a moment.

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

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