The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness 1380 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • shadow

    thirdwitness, You know what is a funny thing. You say you are one of Jehovah's Witnesses and yet rather than siding with a fellow JW you cast your lot in with religious leaders who have a long record of error, who value conformity over truth, leaders that are disloyal to Jehovah by relying on their own ideas rather than the Bible.

    Are you friends with Jehovah's people or Jehovah's enemies?

    Think about that for a moment.

    Shadow, who is still a JW after 40 years

  • Jeffro

    How Long Are the Seven Times?

    Flawed Assumption 1: Revelation implies that a ‘time’ as 360 days, therefore any reference to a ‘time’ must be the same duration.

    Why Daniel Used the Word 'Times' not Years

    Flawed Argument 2: Daniel used a word other than ‘year’, therefore he must have meant some period other than years.

    Flawed Argument 3: Daniel must have received special direction to choose the word ‘times’ for some greater application.

    Flawed Argument 4: Daniel didn’t mean years, therefore he must have meant the same ‘times’ as implied in Revelation (rather than any other period such as days, weeks, months, seasons etc).

    Flawed Argument 5: John chose his wording in Revelation specifically for the interpretation of Daniel.

    Flawed Argument 6: 7 times means 7 years for Nebuchadnezzar.

    Flawed Argument 7: The ‘Gentile Times’ relates to the period mentioned in Revelation.

    Flawed Argument 8: Jesus was “the lowliest one of mankind”.

    Could Seven Times Mean 70 Years?

    Strawman Argument 1: 7 times doesn’t mean 70 years, therefore it must mean the 7 times of Revelation.

    (Counterargument to Strawman argument): The bible states that Cyrus was God’s “anointed one” (Isaiah 45:1) and replaced Babylon as World Power over the Jews in 539 at the end of the 70 years.

    Flawed Argument 9: A ‘day for a year’ must be applied to ‘times’ in Daniel chapter 4 (but not at 7:5 or 12:7)

    Flawed Argument 10: 7 times can only be calculated as either 7 years of 2520 years.

    What the Tree Pictures

    Flawed Argument 11: Similar phrasing about God’s right to take away authority in Ezekiel means the same period is meant by Daniel.

    Flawed Argument 12: Ezekiel 21:25-27 must refer to Zedekiah (despite the fact that the words are addressed to Israel, which Ezekiel 37:15-23 indicates as distinct from Judah at that time, and Ezekiel 4:5 indicates a period of judgement for Israel running up until the time of Jerusalem’s destruction).

    Flawed Argument 13: Ezekiel’s comparison of a scepter with a tree must mean that Nebuchadnezzar’s dream was about Israel. (Compare Matthew 3:10, which referred to a future event.) Also, note that the Ezekiel’s ‘tree’ was uprooted (Ezekiel 19:12), not banded.

    Flawed Argument 14: If Nebuchadnezzar’s dream is about Israel, it must refer to the Judean king Zedekiah.

    Flawed Argument 15: Removing human king of Judah impacts God’s rulership of Earth (though a) nations surrounding Jerusalem prior to its fall were not regarded as being in servitude to Jerusalem prior to 70 years of serving the king of Babylon, b) previously, Jerusalem was a minor kingdom overshadowed by other world powers, and c) no human king was reinstated in 1914).

    Flawed Argument 16: The mention of “shade” at Lamentations 4:20 refers to Nebuchadnezzar’s dream about a tree.

    Flawed Argument 17: Removing Zedekiah from the Jewish throne, so that there was no king in Jerusalem represented Nebuchadnezzar taking the throne of Jeruslaem.

    The Riddle of Ezekiel 17

    Flawed Argument 18: Ezekiel’s riddle about a shoot being taken from a tree and replanted in Canaan represented Nebuchadnezzar’s dream of a tree that was cut down and banded.

    Flawed Argument 19: Daniel referred to a tree that was cut down, and Ezekiel referred twice to a tree that was cut down, so Daniel must have meant the same tree as Ezekiel.

    Trees, Stumps, Roots,Twigs and the Kingship of Jesus

    Flawed Argument 20: Several scriptures (none of which are in Daniel) refer to a root or twig representing the Messiah, so the tree in Nebuchadnezzar’s dream must represent Jesus.

    Flawed Argument 21: A prophecy of Isaiah that was fulfilled shortly after Babylon’s fall must have also had an additional fulfilment.

    The Prophecies of Daniel Point to Jesus as Ruler

    Flawed Argument 22: Some of Daniel’s writings imply allusion to the Messiah, so the tree dream must as well.

    Should We Apply the Day for a Year Rule?

    Flawed Argument 23: Misapplying the ‘seven times’ to Jeruslaem as seven literal years doesn’t work, so they must be ‘days of years’ instead.

    Flawed Argument 24: Saying ‘seven times’ must mean more than seven years.

    Flawed Argument 25: Ezekiel said a ‘day for a year’ in an unrelated prophecy, so the same rule must be applied to Daniel.

    Flawed Argument 26: Revelation refers to 3.5 times, 42 months, and 1260 days, so it must mean that the ‘day for a year’ ‘rule’ needs to be applied to Daniel… sometimes.

    Jerusalem Will Be Trampled On by the Nations

    Flawed Argument 27: Events that Luke said were yet future really started over 600 years before.

    Flawed Argument 28: Matthew and Mark both said “disgusting thing” when recording the same event, so it must have two fulfilments.

    Flawed Argument 29: The second fulfilment of the “disgusting thing” must be the UN.

    Flawed Argument 30 (Stupid Illustration 1): Source B describes event 4 (trampling) after source A describes event 1 (tree), so event 4 must have started at the same time as event 1, ignoring the fact that source B also said that event 4 comes after events 2 and 3 (Luke 21:24) that happen after source B describes events 2, 3 & 4.

    607 to 1914--The Gentile Times

    Flawed Argument 31: 30 flawed arguments supposedly prove a point.

  • AuldSoul
    When Jesus said 'all authority' did he mean that he had all authority over everything and everyone?

    All authority, yes. This does not require GREATER authority over everything. But at least equal to every authority. If someone is given authority equal to the highest available authority they have all authority, no one has greater authority. He became co-ruler, seated on the throne with his Father at his Father's right hand, with authority equal to that of the one who granted it to him. I caution, authority possessed does not equal authority exercised no matter how often you try to assert otherwise.

    I noticed you have trotted out your "61 CE" Hebrews crap, repeatedly. However, the date for the writing of Hebrews is hardly solidly confirmed. And Ephesians states directly that God had placed "all things" under the feet of Jesus by the time of its writing, which JWs put as prior to Hebrews. Since JWs teach that the same author wrote both books, why does the author directly contradict his own earlier statement? Could JWs be wrong? What am I thinking! We know for sure they can. They have been wrong about every prediction they have made since they first appeared under the guise of "Bible Students" in 1879.

    You also keep bringing up that Revelation says "Now have come to pass...the authority of his Christ." If he did not have all authority when he said he had all authority, he lied. "Come to pass" can easily mean an exercise of authority, power, and rulership. In the case of "authority" due to Matthew 28:18 it could not possibly mean a granting of authority unless Jesus lied. So, understanding Jesus' authority is actually the key to understanding whether the verse describes the acquiring of power, rulership, and authority or whether it describes the exercise of the same.

    If Jesus lied in Matthew 28:18, the understanding of "granting" cannot be ruled out. If Jesus told the truth in Matthew 28:18, then the verses in Revelation MUST be understood as an exercising of power, rulership, and authority that were already possessed. Nothing in Revelation prevents this latter understanding, but the former understanding is prevented by Revelation 1:1-9 and Matthew 28:18.

    How is it that Jesus went to heaven and came before Jehovah as recorded at Daniel 7:13,14 in 33CE when the little horn that would become great had not yet arrived on the world scene as shown would be the case at this time in Daniel 7?

    I am guessing you agree with the JW interpretation of the little horn? I do not hold your prejudices about the interpretive prowess of the leaders (gods) of your church. They are wrong far more often than they are right. In fact, when it comes to interpreting the meaning of the verses in Daniel they have rewritten many times over more words explaining and changing the explanations of Daniel than are contained in the entire Bible. The little horn doesn't mean what they think it means, they interpreted it just as badly as they interpret almost everything else. Next?

    How is it that Paul said the Jesus was still waiting for Jehovah to put his enemies under his feet in Heb 10:13 if Jesus had already received 'all authority'?

    That's a really good question. Especially considering Paul directly contradicted what he wrote to the Ephesians (if he even wrote Hebrews). Why don't you ask Paul?

    Did this happen in 33CE? Did he travel to a distant land (heaven) privately after his ressurection and 'eventually' secure kingly power in a couple of days, then returned to earth and appeared to the disciples and then returned to heaven before onlookers without rewarding his slaves and punishing his enemies?

    Except why do you continually imply that the parable you are referring to from Luke 19 and Matthew 25 are prophecies? Also, why do you stipulate that kingly power had to be secured "in a couple of days"? Also, why do you believe he did not reward his slaves, why do you believe his enemies were not punished? Also, why do you keep insinuating that obtaining authority EQUALS obtaining kingly power? Also, why has Jesus not literally slaughtered nearly 100 years after rewarding his select upon his return?

    So, in short, your entire question here is based on a LONG string of conjecture that doubles back on itself forming a perfect circle, filled with what appears to be cooked spaghetti—all wet, limp and lifeless.

    You see, I believe Luke 19 and Matthew 25 were parables, stories designed to teach a lesson. Jesus' disciples believe the same thing. I get the lesson from it and do not expect the lesson to ALSO be a prophecy requiring detailed interpretation. Obviously, you believe everything Jesus said was a prophecy related to a tiny fly-speck of a religion that reared its head founded entirely on pagan teachings in the late 1800s. I do not share that belief.

    Revelation 11:15 is plainly the announcement of an event that had already occurred. If I write, "I did become a writer" would you know when I became a writer? You would only know that it was sometime prior to my statement and anything more specific that you concluded from my words would be pure conjecture. The timing of the occurrence is not stipulated in the text, and your assertion that it occurred at the sounding of the trump is not founded in Scripture. However, other events are supported as accompanying the sounding of this trumpet.

    Matthew 24:29-31
    29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.

    After the opening of the seventh seal, in Revelation, we catch sight of four angels holding back the four winds for a purpose. What purpose? The sealing of the servants of God in their foreheads. Then we see a great crowd identified as those who come out of the Great Tribulation. Then we read about a series of trumpets blown. The fifth trumpet is the first of a series of three woes. After the sixth trumpet there is another pause, during which seven thunders speak. Finally, the last trumpet sounds. It signals, in one blast, the culmination of the seven seals, the three woes, and the seven trumpets. How could there be a greater trumpet sound?

    1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 13 Moreover, brothers, we do not want YOU to be ignorant concerning those who are sleeping [in death]; that YOU may not sorrow just as the rest also do who have no hope. 14 For if our faith is that Jesus died and rose again, so, too, those who have fallen asleep [in death] through Jesus God will bring with him. 15 For this is what we tell YOU by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep [in death]; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with [the] Lord. 18 Consequently keep comforting one another with these words.
    1 Corinthians 15:50-57
    50 However, this I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom, neither does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Look! I tell YOU a sacred secret: We shall not all fall asleep [in death], but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when [this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and] this which is mortal puts on immortality, then the saying will take place that is written: “Death is swallowed up forever.” 55 “Death, where is your victory? Death, where is your sting?” 56 The sting producing death is sin, but the power for sin is the Law. 57 But thanks to God, for he gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!

    Now, this verse in 1 Corinthians has me a bit puzzled, thirdwitness. Obviously no one would describe a single trumpet as "the last trumpet". This designation clearly necessitates a series of trumpets with a "last" in the series. If Paul had not read Revelation when he wrote this, where did he get the idea there would be a series of trumpet blasts, with a final one that would signal the events described here? But wouldn't that mean that he wrote 1 Corinthians AFTER considering John's vision? What do YOU say?

    I say, this trumpet has not been blown. I say, this trumpet will be nearly concurrent with the sign of the Son of man which hasn't yet occurred.

    But, you may have some other rationale...or irrationale as the case may be.


  • Mr Anderson
    Mr Anderson

    3w thats a good point but I dont let anyone chose my friends for me . My mum is a JW as well but my dad never was and he has had a bible study in the past . What side should I choose? At any rate the word apostate could apply to just about anyone as it is so over used . Just because someone was a JW or never was but beleives in things I dont doesnt make them enemys . Its the WT definition and we could debate that if u like but lets just agree to differ .

    I will side with you 3w when i think you are right about something but in this case i dont . I do admire you in some ways although i know that wont count much with you .

  • TD
    Me: It is clear that some people will say and believe anything as long as it doesn't agree with JWs. How ridiculous can you get? Really, does anyone take this seriously?

    That sounds so much like Robert King from 7 - 9 years ago it's uncanny! As a JW apologist, he never understood hyperbole either.

  • AuldSoul

    Mr. Anderson,

    I also admire thirdwitness in some ways. I don't think anyone can fault him when it comes to weighing relative tenacity. I have seen bulldogs easier to shake loose. I wouldn't take personal attacks too much to heart.

    Those who think they are always correct or have the one true faith are going to be hard hit when Jehovah hits hard.

    I think this is where thirdwitness gets crossed up. He thinks if I raise eight different possible scenarios that I am contradicting myself if the eight do not agree with each other. Yet, he states his beliefs as singular facts, as "the only possible conclusion" or the "obvious conclusion," when these beliefs often stand in direct contradiction to the Bible.

    His problem in reasoning with me is that I don't have "THE TRUTH™"; I am not so presumptuous in my claims. Therefore, I have nothing to prove and much to investigate, and all I have to do is show where his version is in error to win debates with him. He takes the side of doctrinal supporter, therefore, all I have to do is remove the supports for the doctrine. He wants me to make positive statements of fact in rebuttal to his statements. While I honestly admit I don't know enough to form a positive statement I can also demonstrate that he doesn't know enough to form a positive statement.

    However, I am positive about many things the Bible teaches. And I am positive about many things it remains completely silent about. For instance, from reading 1 Corinthians 12-14 I am positive that First Century gatherings of Christians were NOTHING LIKE the ritualistic education sessions or worship services of today's religions (including JWs). I am likewise sure that the stated purpose of gathering as described in Hebrews 10:24, 25 is not met by the meetings of Jehovah's Witnesses. These verses say nothing about education, but that is the primary objective of the JW meetings.

    I am positive that the requirements for JW baptismare not found in the Bible as requirements for Christian baptism. I have had several JWs and JW students offer to demonstrate that these are Scriptural requirements. But after going off to research the matter only one has been forthright enough to return and admit they could not find any foundation for calling these steps "requirements" for Christian baptism—saki2fifty.

    I am positive that John 1:1 makes clear that "in the beginning" Jesus was either "divine" or "God" or "a god." Regardless of which you choose, if Jesus was a god "in the beginning," then he was either the true God or a false god. I am positive the Bible teaches that there is only one true God.

    Isaiah speaks prophetically of the Messiah saying that he would be called (among other things) "Mighty God." According to the Bible, there are only two types of gods, true and false. Satan, Baal, Molech, Tammuz, Horus, Zeus, Baste, Ostarte, Quetzalcoatl, Ganesha and the rest of the thousands of denizens of various Pantheons are called "false gods" in the Bible. YHWH is the only one referred to as God.

    Isaiah, which was written at least some time after "in the beginning," says of YHWH, "Besides me there is no other God." Which raises an interesting question regarding the divinity of the Word. If the Word was divine "in the beginning" how could the Word not be YHWH, since besides YHWH there is no other God?

    I am positive that JWs do not bend their knees to Jesus, but that Jesus' disciples DID do so. On many occasions. And they were never censured for doing so.

    I am positive I will never stop learning until my brain quits working and that assertion of certainty is a dangerous thing that should be treated with a great deal of respect.


  • stevenyc

    In the spirit of the title of this thread lets see what is actually written in the bible to clear up any confusion. To anyone who is still unsure as to what the passages in Matthew are about, please, just read your bible. It's quite plain.

    The passages in question are just after Jesus gave to Jewish priests a good talking too. So, lets start at the beginning.

    Matthew 21: 1 - 21

    Jesus makes his grand entrance into Jerusalem as the heir to David’s throne.

    He sees what has happened to the temple (a place for selling and changing money) and turns the place upside down. He heals a few people,

    Then after a small exchange with some priests, he heads off the Bethany to spend the night.

    In the morning they eats some figs.

    Matthew 21: 23 - 45

    He then goes back to the temple. He starts talking with the chief priests and elders. They question his authority.

    There is the parable of the two sons, and the tenants. And, then Jesus starts to piss off the priests.

    v45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus' parables, they knew he was talking about them. 46They looked for a way to arrest him, but they were afraid of the crowd because the people held that he was a prophet.

    Matthew 22:1 - 14 (still at the temple) is the parable of the wedding banquet.

    Vs 15 - 22

    The priests try to trick Jesus, and so he replies with 'paying taxes to Caesar'.

    Vs 23 - 33

    Marriage after the resurrection explained.

    Vs 34 - 36

    They test him again, the greatest law. Love of God and then neighbor.

    Vs 41 - 44

    Jesus then asks them the Question of who is the son of David, where: 46No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.

    Matt 23: (still at the temple) (all quotes from the NWT)

    This is when Jesus really goes for it. This is when he stamps his authority.

    1 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples,

    Note: Okay, REMEMBER to whom Jesus is talking to!

    saying: 2 “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the seat of Moses. 3 Therefore all the things they tell YOU, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds, for they say but do not perform. 4 They bind up heavy loads and put them upon the shoulders of men, but they themselves are not willing to budge them with their finger. 5 All the works they do they do to be viewed by men; for they broaden the [scripture-containing] cases that they wear as safeguards, and enlarge the fringes [of their garments]. 6 They like the most prominent place at evening meals and the front seats in the synagogues, 7 and the greetings in the marketplaces and to be called Rabbi by men.
    8 But YOU, do not YOU be called Rabbi, for one is YOUR teacher, whereas all YOU are brothers. 9 Moreover, do not call anyone YOUR father on earth, for one is YOUR Father, the heavenly One. 10 Neither be called ‘leaders,’ for YOUR Leader is one, the Christ. 11 But the greatest one among YOU must be YOUR minister. 12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

    "Leader" and "minister" here are rendered "Teacher" and "servant" in other translations.

    13 “Woe to YOU, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because YOU shut up the kingdom of the heavens before men; for YOU yourselves do not go in, neither do YOU permit those on their way in to go in. 14 ——
    15 “Woe to YOU, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because YOU traverse sea and dry land to make one proselyte, and when he becomes one YOU make him a subject for Ge·hen´na twice as much so as yourselves.
    16 “Woe to YOU, blind guides, who say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it is nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is under obligation.’ 17 Fools and blind ones! Which, in fact, is greater, the gold or the temple that has sanctified the gold? 18 Also, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it is nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is under obligation.’ 19 Blind ones! Which, in fact, is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift? 20 Therefore he that swears by the altar is swearing by it and by all the things on it; 21 and he that swears by the temple is swearing by it and by him that is inhabiting it; 22 and he that swears by heaven is swearing by the throne of God and by him that is sitting on it.
    23 “Woe to YOU, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because YOU give the tenth of the mint and the dill and the cumin, but YOU have disregarded the weightier matters of the Law, namely, justice and mercy and faithfulness. These things it was binding to do, yet not to disregard the other things. 24 Blind guides, who strain out the gnat but gulp down the camel!
    25 “Woe to YOU, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because YOU cleanse the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of plunder and immoderateness. 26 Blind Pharisee, cleanse first the inside of the cup and of the dish, that the outside of it also may become clean.
    27 “Woe to YOU, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because YOU resemble whitewashed graves, which outwardly indeed appear beautiful but inside are full of dead men’s bones and of every sort of uncleanness. 28 In that way YOU also, outwardly indeed, appear righteous to men, but inside YOU are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
    29 “Woe to YOU, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because YOU build the graves of the prophets and decorate the memorial tombs of the righteous ones, 30 and YOU say, ‘If we were in the days of our forefathers, we would not be sharers with them in the blood of the prophets.’ 31 Therefore YOU are bearing witness against yourselves that YOU are sons of those who murdered the prophets.32 Well, then, fill up the measure of YOUR forefathers.

    REMEMBER Vs 33 - 36

    33 “Serpents, offspring of vipers, how are YOU to flee from the judgment of Ge·hen´na?
    34 For this reason, here I am sending forth to YOU prophets and wise men and public instructors. Some of them YOU will kill and impale, and some of them YOU will scourge in YOUR synagogues and persecute from city to city; 35 that there may come upon YOU all the righteous blood spilled on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to
    the blood of Zech·a·ri´ah son of Bar·a·chi´ah, whom YOU murdered between the sanctuary and the altar.36 Truly I say to YOU, All these things will come upon this generation.
    37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent forth to her,—how often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks together under her wings! But YOU people did not want it. 38 Look! YOUR house is abandoned to YOU.

    REMEMBER Vs. 39!

    39 For I say to YOU, YOU will by no means see me from henceforth until YOU say, ‘Blessed is he that comes in Jehovah’s name!’”

    Matt 24:1 (All taken from NWT unless otherwise stated)

    Departing now, Jesus was on his way from the temple, but his disciples approached to show him the buildings of the temple. 2 In response he said to them: “Do YOU not behold all these things? Truly I say to YOU, By no means will a stone be left here upon a stone and not be thrown down.”
    3 While he was sitting upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?”

    Note: The Mount of Olives is on the opposite side of a small valley from the temple and about an hours walk.

    The two parallel accounts say this:

    Mark 13:4; 4 “Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign when all these things are destined to come to a conclusion?”
    Luke 21:7 Then they questioned him, saying: “Teacher, when will these things actually be, and what will be the sign when these things are destined to occur?”

    That was quite a day for the disciples. Jesus did not pussyfoot around at the temple. He told the people and his disciples the seven Woes to the scribes and Pharisees, he said that the blood of the righteous, from Abel to Zechariah, will be on them (the religious leaders). He completely denounces them (the religious leaders) saying they will be judged in Gehenna. And, 23:36; Truly I say to YOU, All these things will come upon this generation.

    Yep, that was quite a day for his disciples. And, to top it all, on leaving the temple on the way to the Mount of Olives he told his disciples the temple was going to be destroyed. What was the on their mind?

    Using the CONTEXT of their two-fold question (in the same sentence), they can only be referring to the same time. When was it going to be destroyed, and, what will be the sign that it is about to happen.
    The NIV translates the passages as this: 3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?" The Mark and Luke accounts say the same thing. "When will this (or these) things happen? They were not talking about the destruction of the planet, they were asking about the destruction of Jerusalem.

    As has been shown in this thread, the apostles believed Jesus would set up a physical kingdom on the earth, at Jerusalem. So, when was this going to happen, and what would be the sign of you coming to Jerusalem and the end of the current corrupt Jewish religion?

    Remember Jesus knew that the Romans were going to destroy Jerusalem. That happens in 70 A.D. So he gives them advise and warnings and signs.

    Back to the text:

    4 And in answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads YOU; 5 for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. 6 YOU are going to hear of wars and reports of wars; see that YOU are not terrified. For these things must take place, but the end is not yet.
    7 “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. 8 All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress. (or NIV 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.)

    Josephus records that just before the destruction of Jerusalem, Rome underwent a violent political period. Four emperors: Nero, Galba, Otho, and Vitellius suffered violent deaths, in eighteen months. Bardanes, and Volageses, declared war against the Jews, but it was not executed. Syria, declared war against Aretas, king of Arabia, and wished to lead his army through Palestine, but the death of Tiberius prevented the war.

    9 “Then people will deliver YOU up to tribulation and will kill YOU, and YOU will be objects of hatred by all the nations on account of my name. 10 Then, also, many will be stumbled and will betray one another and will hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and mislead many; 12 and because of the increasing of lawlessness the love of the greater number will cool off. 13 But he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved. 14 And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.

    Remember Matt 23:33. He is repeating what he said previously. He knew it was going to be hard, but was encouraging then keep going. And, to watch out for those false prophets.

    Paul also wrote how the gospel "had" been preached to all the nations "before" the destruction of Jerusalem. Rom 1:8; “First of all, I give thanks to my God through Jesus Christ concerning all of YOU, because YOUR faith is talked about throughout the whole world.” Fulfilling Jesus' words.

    15 “Therefore, when YOU catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place, (let the reader use discernment,) 16 then let those in Ju·de´a begin fleeing to the mountains. 17 Let the man on the housetop not come down to take the goods out of his house; 18 and let the man in the field not return to the house to pick up his outer garment. 19 Woe to the pregnant women and those suckling a baby in those days! 20 Keep praying that YOUR flight may not occur in wintertime, nor on the sabbath day; 21 for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again. 22 In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short.

    With the siege and destruction of Jerusalem, the Romans entered and put up statues of their Gods in its place. They would be seen as the disgusting thing. Jesus tells his disciples to flee to the mountains when they "SEE" them come.
    If God didn't step in all of Judea would be slaughtered. Josephus records the destruction of the area. Absolute desolation, with thousands of bodies lying in the streets. The Roman general who set up the siege of Jerusalem returns to Rome to become the new emperor and sends his son back to Jerusalem to finish the job. During that siege, his disciples would have "SEEN" food shortages, pestilence, quaking earth, and people fighting each other. At any opportunity, especially during a lull in the siege, the signs were there for them to flee to safety. All these things had to take place, but the end of Jerusalem was not yet.

    23 “Then if anyone says to YOU, ‘Look! Here is the Christ,’ or, ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones. 25 Look! I have forewarned YOU. 26 Therefore, if people say to YOU, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; ‘Look! He is in the inner chambers,’ do not believe it. 27 For just as the lightning comes out of eastern parts and shines over to western parts, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 28 Wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

    Once again, don't listen to people who will say they are Christ, because they are lying.

    29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.

    Just before Jesus was killed he said the same thing to the chief priests and Sanhedrin in Jerusalem: Matt 26:64 “Jesus said to him: “You yourself said [it]. Yet I say to YOU men, From henceforth YOU will see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming on the clouds of heaven.””
    Also, remember Matthew 23: 39 "For I say to YOU, YOU will by no means see me from henceforth until YOU say, ‘Blessed is he that comes in Jehovah’s name!’”

    After all the things they have seen so far, the big stuff happens. Jerusalem gets destroyed. Gods judgment on Jerusalem happens, and his prophecies are validated. Then they will know that Jesus is in heaven, that he spoke the truth and that judgment is given.

    32 “Now learn from the fig tree as an illustration this point: Just as soon as its young branch grows tender and it puts forth leaves, YOU know that summer is near. 33 Likewise also YOU, when YOU see all these things, know that he is near at the doors. 34 Truly I say to YOU that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will by no means pass away.

    Jesus tells his disciples how to see the signs of Jerusalem’s imminent destruction. He also tells them how soon it is going to be. Within the time of their generation, or contemporaries.

    36 “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; 39 and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken along and the other be abandoned; 41 two women will be grinding at the hand mill: one will be taken along and the other be abandoned. 42 Keep on the watch,
    therefore, because YOU do not know on what day YOUR Lord is coming.
    43 “But know one thing, that if the householder had known in what watch the thief was coming, he would have kept awake and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 On this account YOU too prove yourselves ready, because at an hour that YOU do not think to be it, the Son of man is coming.
    45 “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? 46 Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. 47 Truly I say to YOU, He will appoint him over all his belongings. 48 “But if ever that evil slave should say in his heart, ‘My master is delaying,’ 49 and should start to beat his fellow slaves and should eat and drink with the confirmed drunkards, 50 the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect and in an hour that he does not know, 51 and will punish him with the greatest severity and will assign him his part with the hypocrites. There is where [his] weeping and the gnashing of [his] teeth will be.

    Jesus once again tells them to be alert for the signs, so they can flee to the mountains and salvation. Also, to let others know for their survival. In fact, if they didn't preach these messages to other, they would be made to suffer like the hypocrites mentioned in chapter 23.

    That's it, from the bible.

    The whole of Chapter 24 is with regard to the destruction of Jerusalem. When it will happen, and how will the disciples know it was about to happen, and how they can survive. Nothing more. Nothing less.


  • Mr Anderson
    Mr Anderson

    2Ti 2:24
    But a slave of the Lord does not need to fight, but needs to be gentle toward all, qualified to teach, keeping himself restrained under evil,

    1Co 13:9

    For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially;

    1Co 13:10

    but when that which is complete arrives, that which is partial will be done away with.

    1Co 13:11

    When I was a babe, I used to speak as a babe, to think as a babe, to reason as a babe; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the
    of a babe.

    1Co 13:12

    For at present we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face to face. At present I know partially, but then I shall know accurately even as I am accurately known.

    1Co 13:13

    Now, however, there remain faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

  • AuldSoul
    Really, does anyone take this seriously?

    Yes, thirdwitness. I take it seriously. I take it very seriously that an organization has presumed to unequivocally proclaim itself the ONLY channel for communication from God. I take it very seriously that they severely punish anyone who used to believe their claim for disbelief.

    Here is the reality: If this organization existed in Asia during or shortly after the conquest by the Mongols, they very well may have asserted that the rider of the white horse was Ghengis Khan. The fact that I can temporally displace this prophecy out of context forced by the WTS and find other matches proves that their interpretation is only a possible intepretation and nothing more. The fact that their interpretation requires the use of force by Jesus ever since 1914, when there is no evidence of the continual application of force being applied from that time forward in order to subdue people by force, rules out their interpretation as a possible interpretation for those verses.

    Jesus has not been conquering since 1914. I take that claim very seriously, indeed. I do not take seriously your interpretation, except to the degree that you are afraid tohave any other for fear of expulsion from Jehovah's Witnesses. I do not take seriously my own hyperbolic interpretation, except to the degree that the real-life, provable circumstances of Ghengis Khan's conquest actually fulfills this prophecy much more convincingly than does your organization's spritually invisible (and undetectable) application of force to subdue in the form of court cases, winning people's hearts, building facilities, etc.

    In what way is force applied through winning court cases to defend religious practices? "Force" is an offensive concept, not a defensive one. Someone cannot conquer through defense, it is impossible.

    I take it very seriously indeed, that you try to subvert what the Bible says in order to support the doctrines of a religion that would figuratively stone my parents for continuing to have normal contact with me. I take it seriously that you refuse to answer direct questions directly. Since I stated that I was not saying the rider was Ghengis Khan, I hope no one seriously considered that as being my belief.

    Why won't you answer my three questions about the Watchtower Society's association to the UN/DPI? You obviously know that what I wrote is true and adheres strictly to the facts, that I have used the UN/DPI terminology correctly, and that I am keeping separate the things which throw many JWs off the right track when investigating the issue. Does that scare you? Is that why you won't answer? I don't blame you. If you answered those three questions honestly you would have to admit that the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. did nothing short of what would result in a JW being announced as disassociated.

    BTW, the Society knows, too. They aren't admitting it, but they know. The CO who twice visited me asked whether I knew it was okay for them to use the library. I responded, "Sure it was. Just as it would be fine for a JW to decide to go see the artwokr in the Basilica of St. Peter. But if a representative from the Vatican was blocking the entrance and requiring that people first Associate to the Vatican or to the Vatican Department of Public Information, would it still be okay to look at the art? Could I Associate to the Vatican Department of Public Information to look at the artwork?"

    He sat back with a heavy sigh and looked at my father (the PO) and said, "He's right. He understands the principles involved, and he's right." He left expressing that he would check into this for me. The Circuit Overseer (Bro. Griffiths) pressed my questions to the Service Desk and was shut down. The next visit, he had retired to the same ol' "Wait on Jehovah" schtick.

    You do not understand the principles involved. You are not right in what you have written about the issue. You are wrong, very wrong. If you will honestly answer my three question on the subject you will discover the manner in which you are wrong.


  • toreador

    Very interesting conversation Auldsoul! I am surprised he had the balls to admit you were right on the principal thing.


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