A bit reluctant

by saki2fifty 148 Replies latest jw friends

  • TD

    5 Trust in Jehovah with all your heart and do not lean upon your own understanding.

    DO NOT LEAN UPON YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING. This is an ORDER. Satan did the same thing to Eve in the garden of Eden that you guys are doing to him right now. Little mindless jabs...whispers..."Why not do some research?" & "What's wrong with the world?" and such.

    Notice who in effect, becomes "Jehovah" in the JW worldview.....

    If you believe that the JW organization is Divinely inspired, then Hummingbird's scriptural application works.

    However if you believe that only the Bible is inspired and that JW understanding is correct only insofar as their understanding of the Bible is correct, then Hummingbird's scriptural application falls flat and amounts to idolatry.

    To illustrate: If I wanted to invite you over for dinner at my house and you didn't know where I lived, there are two basic ways I could get you there.

    1. I could ride along with you and say, "Turn right" and "Turn Left"

    2. I could give you my address, draw you a little map and let you figure it out.

    There is no getting around the fact that option #2 depends upon your own understanding and requires you to think.

    The question revolves around how you believe that God communicates with you. Does he speak to you directly? Does he speak to individuals in the JW oranization directly and they in turn speak to you?

    Or has He instead given you a "Map" (The Bible) that you must read, study and understand?

  • saki2fifty
    the same guys who are "only 90%" in your own words and have such a huge history of errors and false prophecy

    Show me another religeon, movement, or people that tries as hard at the WTS, that holds God with utmost respect, that lives and dies by his word regardless of the outcome. Then show me who even comes close to that 90% mark that is mentioned above. That last 10% I personally have reserved for their errors, and new enlightenment that may come our way. I think 90% is very accurate assesment of how hard the WTS tries... of which im sure noone else can claim.

    Key word is "tries". Why? because even the religeous organziations are run by men. If lowly men can err, then so can a movement/organization.

    One very, very small example of something I read last night.... There was a past elder who made a comment attacking/insulting the witnesses because of them not watching "R" rated material. In such a small example, who else tries harder than the witnesses to even tackle such a simple task? For out benefit? Yep... I know I wouldn't subject my kids to that material.

    By doing what we wish, by doing whatever else that might be against JW's principles really sets you free, really makes you happy, which is the main theme here on this board, then can we really say that we are doing what God wants? Or maybe doing what God wants isn't the key. Maybe its just us being happy within ourselves...

    Then we grow old, die, and thats it. What kind of hope is that?


  • BizzyBee
    Let's get out while we still can. I certainly intend to after this post.

    Hummingbird - it's like eating potato chips, isn't it? Just can't stop. Don't make promises you can't keep. Oooops! But you learned that from the WTS, didn't you?

  • saki2fifty
    Aside from repentance and conversion I can't find a single Scripture to support any of the requirements they say a believer must meet in order to qualify for baptism. If I am not to rely on my own understanding, should I rely on the understanding of other imperfect, uninspired men? If so, why? If not, I need the Scriptures that support their teaching on pre-baptismal requirements so that I may rely on the teachings of the Bible instead of the traditional interpretation of men.

    I believe I read one of your posts the other night, and you mentioned only 2 things are required... Faith and Love, whereas the WTS has a list of about 5 things/requirments before one can be baptized. Are not those few other requirements not to ensure one will truly represent Jehovah in the correct way? Does not the society not have any leg room to ensure this?

  • TD
    In such a small example, [R rated material] who else tries harder than the witnesses to even tackle such a simple task? For out benefit?

    There is nothing unusual for fundamentalist Christian groups, especially Southern Baptists, to frown on or even forbid their members to view R rated material.

    Personally, I don't think a movie like Schindler's List is a moral equivalent to Debbie Does Dallas, but maybe that's just me.....

  • Nowman


    Sounds like hummingbird got to you...your last two posts sounded different. I have enjoyed everyones responses and learned so much. I hope that you know that we have not left the JW cult so we could go see reated R movies...most have us have not left the cult because we wanted to do what we wanted too...most of us here have left because of what the org (WTBS)is, a cult. There are a group of men in New York running this multi-billion business, and how they have had (and still do) such a great effect on the JWs that exist in the world! I read the way you speak, and I think to myself how afraid you are! How we all felt at one time! I was so scared to leave the org, it effected me through out my twenties. Its sick how it still had an unhealthly hold on me. Is Jehovah God (I am agnostic so I do not know for sure) going to destroy me, my husband, and my two children because their mom did not want to be a Jehovahs Witness? I do not think so. Is Jehovah God going to destroy my mom too because she left the org too, after years of abuse and no support from the elders? Are the apostates on this site going to be destroyed by Jehovah God because they did some of their own research and found things about the WTBS that bothered their consicience? Are they going to be destroyed because the WTBS changed their thinking on some things and so they left the org? Are they going to be destroyed by Jehovah God because the WTBS changed their veiwpoint on the blood issue, and 2 years prior their child or parent died because of refusal of blood, and they left the org? Will they be destroyed for bringing reproach on Jehovahs name for going to the authorities because their child or they themselves were sexually abused?

    Come on....I could go on and on. The words you type are so brainwashed, and hummingbird....I just feel sorry for both of you...


  • kid-A


    If the chilling words of this Watchtower apologist dont shake you out of this mind control, I fear nothing will. Think of the implications of the "advice" this dimwit is giving you. She is telling you: NOT TO USE YOUR MIND. NOT TO THINK, NOT TO REASON, TO SHUT OFF YOUR BRAIN.

    Is this how a psychologically mature and healthy human being should function? As an automaton controlled by a multi-million dollar publishing corporation in brooklyn? Would you willingly choose ignorance? Stop. Think for a moment about the implications of her words. Is this the kind of human being you wish to be?

    Your brain has been conditioned to reject logical arguments, and to ignore the red flags raised by your intellect. You are in the throes of cognitive dissonance. Read the information on www.freeminds.org These are not the words of apostates, these are the words of your very own watchtower corporation, demonstrating their history of lies, deceit and the ruination of human lives.

    Humming-twit: enjoy your baptism and mental servitude. Bow down before the one you serve. You're going to get what you deserve.

  • BizzyBee

    Hmmmm........have we been good-cop/bad copped by Hummingbird and Saki?

  • jgnat

    Show me another religeon, movement, or people that tries as hard at the WTS, that holds God with utmost respect, that lives and dies by his word regardless of the outcome.

    Promise Keepers www.promisekeepers.org

    Focus on the Family www.family.org

    24-7 Prayer www.24-7prayer.com

    Christadelphia www.christadelphia.org

    Quakers www.quaker.org

    Salvation Army www.salvationarmy.org

    Gideons www.gideons.org

    Alpha www.alpha.org

    Samaritan’s Purse www.samaritanspurse.org

    Doctors Without Borders www.doctorswithoutborders.org

    Christian Radio Missionary Fellowship http://crmf.com/content/index.html

  • ringo5

    Interesting how hummingbird tried to dissuade you from using your reasoning powers, as if God wouldn't want you to use one of his greatest gifts.

    I'm pasting a letter from a Mormon website that illustrates this very same argument, the only thing different is the organization referred to as the true one. Note that he also prayed and got an answer.

    This topic is very interesting. Being a convert to the church of 15 years. I have found and continue to find the concept of Anti-Mormon material curious. First that people produce it. And second, people actually read it!

    If a "normal person" actually came to the conclusion that a church was NOT legitimate, they certainly would not invest any time writing, creating websites, producing videos and holding seminars about it!

    Normally people just ignore or disregard things that are not true. People who go to this degree of effort have another hidden (or maybe no so hidden) agenda.

    For individuals that start to question their own faith after reading "Anti-Mormon" material, probably have not done enough soul searching in the first place. And are actually a little naive.

    If you worked for HP would you be suprised to find "Anti-HP" material written by IBM?

    Would you be suprised to find "Anti-Honda" material written by Ford?

    Would you be suprised to find "Anti-Black" material written by white racists?

    Have you ever watched a TV talk show like a "Hannity and Combs" and noticed how two completely opposite views can be developed over the same issue?

    It is a sad commentary that a man can be.."married about 27 years...very active-- ...worked in a
    bishopric, as young men's president, done home teaching, been scout master and assistant scout
    master, along with other callings." But during the course of all of these callings and years was never sufficiently converted and/or rooted in the gospel.

    As a convert, the question was pretty clear. Either the Book of Mormon is true or it's not. Either God will answer my prayers or he will remain silent.

    Before I was baptized, I read the Book of Mormon (not just the sections highlighted by the missionaries).
    Then I actually prayed about it. When I prayed for an answer, I was fortunate enough that God answered my prayers.

    The path to conversion is not an easy one. There is no quick fix to testimony. As a matter of fact it
    continues throughout life. If all it took was a quick look at a video or a search on the internet to find out if the church was true, millions would join every day.

    If I went to my spouse and told her that we should sell our house, or quit my job because of an article I read on the internet or as a result of some rumor I heard in the driveway, she would give me a look that only someone that really loved me could give.

    I would suggest that your husband decide for himself first if he is actually interested and has the desire to "really" know for himself.

    If not, all the blessings in the world wont help. Let him alone to work out his own salvation. Stop trying to manipulate his agency. Don't play into this quick fix mentality. Forget the scholars.

    Defer, delete and rid you house any further discussions about the "Anti-Mormon" books, websites and material. Who cares about their tactics? If he were to bring a pornographic magazine or website in the house would you review it with him and discuss it's merits? Of course not!

    Continue to live your religion to the fullest. Who knows maybe one day he may be inspired to seriously rekindle.

    If or when he is really serious about finding out, he will take the strait and narrow road of the convert. He already knows the way. He has probably taught it to someone. He will need to practice what he has preached to a young man in your ward or to a family that he home taught. He will read the Book of Mormon then pray to find out if it is true or not. A testimony gained in such a way cannot be shaken by the internet, a seminar or even a well meaning but uninformed brother-in-law.

    Be Patient,

    Here's the link to that page for some more amazing similarities in thinking patterns...


    Cheers, Ringo5

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