For those not sick to death of talking about this...607 BCE

by Swamboozled 601 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  stevenyc

  As for Tyre I guess you want me to say the same thing over and over again like you are doing.

  No I don't. I want you to explain why you tell us that the Ezekiel prophecies are to be taken as fact, while you tell us that the Ezekiel prophecy failed. You stated that Alexander destroyed Tyre, but Ezekiel tells us in prophecy that Nebuchadnezzar permanently destroyed Tyre. You can't have it both ways. Which is it?

  When you come up with a legitimate explanation about the 40 year desolation of Egypt let us know.

  This is a legitimate explanation. Either you or Ezekiel are wrong regarding the destruction of Tyre by Nebuchadnezzar. I happen to agree with you, that Nebuchadnezzar did not destroy Tyre, never to be built again. As history, and google maps show us. This being the case, why did Ezekiel say it was? And, therefore, why did he say the Egypt was destroyed and left desolate for forty years, when history says different?

  Any reasonable honest person will not accept the following explanations as legitimate:

  1. The 40 year desolation is not literal. -

  There is no mention in history of this

  2. Tyre prophecy was wrong therefore Egypt prophecy is wrong.

  This is not what I said. So, let me clarify: The Tyre prophecy was wrong, therefore Ezekiel's prophecies are not infallible.

  3. The Bible is wrong on chronology.

  If you want bible chronology, read chronicles. Prophecy is not chronology. Irrespective of when it is proved false.

  It must be a little disquieting to all proponents of 587 that this is the best that can be mustered up to explain it. I know if I was a 587 proponent I would be embarrassed. I am really a little bit embarrassed for you people myself.

  Careful there smug-boy. A Jewish/Christian fundamentalist who's entire existence revolves around a fabricated date is in no position to feel embarrassed for me. What I am posting are legitimate difficulties to your posted calculations. Trust me, I have absolutely no qualms about the 607 date being true. In fact, if it were proved to be true, them I would assume that both myself and the secular community would be excited at this new data. You see, it makes no difference to my life. That's the difference between Watch Tower fundamentalists and the secular community. You have to much vested interest to make honest investigations.

  Until you can explain the 40 year desolation how can you even proceed to other points to be discussed.

  Already explained

  There are so many other points that prove 607 and disprove 587 that we can even get to because you can't even overcome this first line of evidence presented.

  Already explained

  steve
• 

  ellderwho

  I have an endless arsenal of information that cannot be overcome and that is the WT publications that explain the Bible.

  Yeah except a kings list that works.
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  VM44

  Did Ezekiel's prophecy of the "desolation of Egypt" mean the whole land of Egypt?

  --VM44
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  jayhawk1

  Is there any other sources for the 40 year desolation other than Ezekiel? I am not reading through pages of pointless information. Just direct me to where it is so I can judge it for myself.
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  VM44

  I did a search for ancient population numbers for Egypt and found this.

  The people of ancient Egypt - The population

  http://nefertiti.iwebland.com/people/index.html

  The following population chart comes from that site.

  Population growth

  OK: Old Kingdom

  MK: Middle Kingdom

  NK: New Kingdom

  LP: Late Period

  It has been estimated that at the beginning of the pharaonic period the population count was about one million, and that at time of the Roman conquest about 5 million people lived in Egypt, give or take a million or so [2].

  The sizes of the dips during the Intermediate Periods are arbitrary.

  [2] Egyptologists tend to dodge the issue of population numbers, as there are no statistics available and all such numbers are based on more or less educated guesswork:

  ? Edward S. Ellis put the New Kingdom population at 5 millions.

  ? The author of the Royal Ontario Museum website gives an estimate of between 1.5 and 5 million Egyptians during the Pyramid Age, a rather non-committing number for a nicely vague and long time period.

  ? Dominic Rathbone estimates that Roman Egypt had a population of 3 to 5 millions, and Bagnall and Frier concur. Ancient historical sources are not very reliable and open to interpretations:

  ? For what it's worth: a seventh century bishop, John of Nikiu, wrote in his world history about Snefru:

  And there was great prosperity in his days and the Egyptians increased very much, and their cattle increased also. And he reigned over them forty and eight years in happiness and peace because of the return of the Egyptians from captivity. And he went to rest full of honour. But before he died he numbered the Egyptians, and their number was 500,000 men. R.H.Charles, The Chronicle of John (c. 690 A.D.) Coptic Bishop of Nikiu, London 1916

  ? According to the Harris papyrus somewhat in excess of 100,000 people belonged to the temple estates during the reign of Ramses III. James Henry Breasted thought that they had been less than 2% of the population, which would give an upper limit of 5,000,000 towards the end of the New Kingdom.

  ? Josephus Flavius gives a count of 7½ millions, without Alexandria.

  ? Diodorus spoke of a population of three (others read this as seven) millions at the beginning of the Roman period.

  In olden times there were more than 18,000 towns and large villages which one can find recorded by name in the sacred lists; under Ptolemy, son of Lagus, more than 3,000 towns were counted, and as many there still are in our times. The total population is said to have amounted to 7 million, and even now it is said to be not less than 3 millions. Diodorus Siculus, Historical Library, 1.31
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  VM44

  Egypt's population resided in three major areas.

  From the above website they are: "the Nile valley between Thebes and the first cataract, the Faiyum, and the Delta."

  Would the "desolation of Egypt" mean that ALL of this area would become devoid of inhabitants?

  The question is not silly, but real.

  --VM44
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  thirdwitness

  AlanF and other proponents of 587. If you have mustered up all the information you have to disprove the 40 year desolation of Egypt then your hand is difficient. It is a losing hand and your bluff has failed. It is time to end the charade that you are putting forth on the 40 year desolation of Egypt. Your arguments are silly and this shall now be demonstrated beyond a doubt to honest hearted ones who really want to know the truth and whose agenda is not merely to prove JWs wrong.

  Your argument is that the 40 year desolation is not literal or was not fulfilled by Nebuchadnezzar. You base it upon

  1. Egypt does not record such a desolation.

  2. Ezekiel said Neb would destroy Tyre and it would never be rebuilt and this was not literal so likewise Egypt's 40 year desolation.

  As for number 1. Does Egypt record the Exodus? No it does not. Did it happen? That is what the Bible says. Do you believe what the Bible says. History 101 tells us: Just because the nation didn't record a defeat doesn't mean it didn't happen. This is basic. Any good historian will tell you this. You first argument therefore has absolutely no merit whatsoever in the eyes of anyone except those whose agenda is simply to discredit JWs.

  Point number 2. I have explain but I see that you want an in depth explanation that leaves no doubt. Well here it is from, you guessed it, the Bible only.

  As some of you pointed out Ezekiel said that Neb would plunder Tyre and then later on in the versus he said that Tyre would never be rebuilt. To some it might appear that this is what Ezekiel is saying? But was Ezekiel saying Neb would be the one who would destroy it to the point that it would never be rebuilt? The Bible, being in complete harmony, provides the answer for us and leaves no doubt.

  Isaiah chapter 23 provides the answer. “Chaldeans. This is the people... They have erected their siege towers; they have stripped bare her dwelling towers; one has set her as a crumbling ruin. Howl, you ships of Tarshish, for your stronghold [Tyre] has been despoiled.” –verse 13

  Now comes the important point. “And it must occur in that day that Tyre must be forgotten seventy years, the same as the days of one king. At the end of seventy years it will happen to Tyre as in the song of a prostitute: “Take a harp, go around the city, O forgotten prostitute. Do your best at playing on the strings; make your songs many, in order that you may be remembered.” –verses 14-16

  So Tyre will not be destroyed by the Chaldeans (Babylonians) laying siege to her, but will simply cause her to be “forgotten” for “seventy years”. The prophet compares her to a forgotten prostitute who hasn't been hired. She needs to take a harp and sing songs to receive customers again (in ancient times prostitutes were distinguished by their singing in the streets at night to attract the attention of a client).

  Isaiah continues, “And it must occur at the end of seventy years that Jehovah will turn his attention to Tyre , and she must return to her hire –verses 17

  Clearly Neb was not to be the one to fulfill the scripture that Tyre would not be rebuilt. While this is far more than enough proof there is still more.

  A prophecy made by Zechariah long after Neb's attack on Tyre. Zech 9:3,4, And Tyre proceeded to build a rampart for herself, and to pile up silver like dust and gold like the mire of [the] streets. Look! Jehovah himself will dispossess her, and into the sea he will certainly strike down her military force; and in the fire she herself will be devoured.

  Did Zechariah, Isaiah, or Jehovah believe that Ezekiel was saying that Neb would fulfill the prophecy against Tyre to the point of it never being rebuilt? No they did not.

  But lets look at Egypt and what was said. Read all of Ezekiel 29 and 30. Take note of Ezekiel 30: 10 “This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, ‘I will also cause the crowd of Egypt to cease by the hand of Neb·u·chad·rez´zar the king of Babylon.

  Can you show us from the Bible that the 40 year desolation was not fulfilled by Neb upon Egypt as the scriptures without a doubt show? So far no one has.

  What are you left with.

  Your point number 1 has no merit as all good historians know.

  Your point number 2 about Tyre has been scripturally shown to be in error without a doubt.

  You are left with only one point. The 40 year desolation of Egypt is not literal (although you have never scriptually shown us what it means symbolically) because I will not admit that JWs and 607 are correct.

  What to expect in the next few posts:

  A lot of weeping and gnashing shown in the form of insults, denial, rhetoric, unscriptural statements as if they were fact, and so on. But you know and I know and everyone reading this topic really know that no one has rose to challenge and disproven how the 40 year desolation of Egypt does not prove 607.
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  jayhawk1

  No, I didn't ask you if Egypt records its desolation of 40 years. I asked you is there any other source other than Ezekiel recording the 40 year desolation? Was it all of Egypt or just some of Egypt? Further, what could be so devistating that it would take 40 years to rebuild?
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  scholar

  Jeffro

  1057

  I agree with your sentiments because that is exactly how I felt when I read the second edition, supplement, the third edition, and the latest fourth edition of Carl Jonsson's Gentile Times Reconsidered. I thought at that time that this hypothesis was just a rehash of SDA chronology easily debunked because it fails to account for the biblical 'seventy years'. Consequently I have demolished such pathetic nonsense on this board over many years.

  scholar JW
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  jayhawk1

  Scholar what are the names of the "Celebrated Watchtower Scholars?"