Question about shunning from someone who has never been a JW....

by whyizit 111 Replies latest jw friends

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  Gunshy

  " You declared that taking poisons in to the body is an unforgivable sin (by declaring that there is no such thing as a smoking Christian). "

  I never said anything like that at all. There is only one unforgivable sin and you and I both know that.

  You're interpolating the thought because I said there is no such thing as a smoking Christian.

  Many of those smoking will pay for their sins at death as will everyone. In order be one of Jehovah's Witnesses in 2006, however, one must renounce smoking as a disgusting practice that not only kills, but it stinks and makes others stink. It clearly shows a blatant lack of love for one's neighbor.

  Even man's laws realize what I'm saying as truthful.

  If you're so much for smoking, why don't you go to a kindergarten class and pass out cigarettes to the children and teach them how to ignite them?
• 

  Gunshy

  I was referring to this:

  " Regarding disowning Christ. Is this not a betrayal?"

  Judas himself was. He disowned and betrayed Christ. But Peter disowned him only. There's a difference.

  You can leave Jehovah's organization or deny association with it. Yet, when you turn against it, that's betrayal.
• 

  SirNose586

  Now Sirnose, I know you're intelligent.

  Buttering up, eh? That's your prerogative, Gunshy...but save your compliments for when you know me a bit better!

  The rich young ruler wouldn't give up his things to follow Jesus. What might that young person in your hall be refusing to give up?

  Your beef may not be with the organization as much as it's with Jesus' teachings Sirnose.

  (Matthew 19:21-22) . ;. ;.Jesus said to him: "If you want to be perfect, go sell your belongings and give to the poor and you will have treasure in heaven, and come be my follower." 22

  ;When the young man heard this saying, he went away grieved, for he was holding many possessions.

  If you want to help someone, sirnose, help the young man rid himself of the bottle so he can then have no barrier to becoming a follower of Jesus.

  You haven't explained how I have any "beef" with Jesus' teachings. This kid (let's call him kid-M) is a good friend of mine, and another friend and I want to help him to straighten out and fly right. The difficult part is to understand how to go about helping him. How can you encourage someone to associate himself with an organization that has shown interest in only punishing him for when he acts out? How do you encourage someone to associate with an organization that has demoted and discouraged his friends? I want to lead kid-M to an authority that he can revere, because right now his only "authorities" are girls and booze. The friend who wants to help me with kid-M wishes he could be df'ed (or otherwise shunned), so he could see the error of his ways. That punishment would be quite stringent, but wouldn't that just push him farther away? Kid-M already engages in these activities because he doesn't care about JW organization authority, and he knows they can't df him. I don't want to lose another youngblood due to shunning.

  The authority I want to lead him to is Christ. Whether he chooses to associate with JWs, despite all they have done to him (or not done for him), should be his choice. Unfortunately, showing him this would be considered apostate, because I no longer believe in toeing the WTS line. I am troubled, because leading people to the freedom of Christ is not what Jehovah's Witnesses believe in. The message has been lately--or at least I am finally noticing it now--that you need organization, righteousness comes through laws, and that they are the sole dispensers of closeness to God.

  The freedom of Christ does not mean that what you believe to be right today may be wrong tomorrow, but then right a few years from now.
• 

  jgnat

  If you're so much for smoking, why don't you go to a kindergarten class and pass out cigarettes to the children and teach them how to ignite them?

  I was not talking about what is healtful, sensible, or lawful. I am referring to what is sinful, biblically speaking. I was talking about the possibility of there being a smoking Christian. The only "Christian" organization who will not baptize a smoker is the Jehovah's Witnesses. What of a Christian who takes up smoking after baptism. Is their baptism nullified? I think this point is critical, as it speaks of the criticality of specific sins to a person's spiritual state.

  I was referring to this: "Regarding disowning Christ. Is this not a betrayal?" Judas himself was. He disowned and betrayed Christ. But Peter disowned him only. There's a difference.

  I suggest rather that the difference between Peter and Judas was not the degree of their sin, but their response to it. Judas condemned himself and perished. Peter approached Jesus afterwards, as painful as that was.
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  plmkrzy

  In regard to barhopping, consider the following scriptural reference to words of Jesus himself and then ask yourself where "confirmed drunkards" would be... in a bar or in a Kingdom Hall?
• 

  plmkrzy

  my post went somewhere else. sorry for the blank.

  I do not recall stating anywhere that Christians "should" go barhopping or otherwise associate with anyone who does. BUT, since my words were taken out of context anyway, barhopping was in fact a "girls night out" thing in my last congregation. Of course it was all very innocent…just a couple drinks and dancing, for the aerobic benefit. I personally know MANY MANY jws that go to clubs where alcohol is served, I don’t know that that is a sin.

  Back to the point, even though it wasn’t, I will ask myself, gladly,

  where "confirmed drunkards" would be... in a bar or in a Kingdom Hall?

  If I were in a Kingdom Hall and did in fact see a “confirmed drunkard” there I would like to ask those with their noses in the air, whispering to one another, to pull their self-righteous heads out of their asses and pat the drunk on the back for not being in a bar, where he/she shouldn’t be due to his/her obvious problem with alcohol. Then they can simply go their own way, as apposed to asking the “confirmed drunkard” out for a drink, dinner and a movie (associate with).

  With regard to “Associating with”

  There is a BIG BIG difference in “not” associating with and just being plain rude. One does not need to associate with a so-called wrong doer. Are you rude to everyone that you do not associate with or are you just rude toward a select few? I have seen so-called Christians in the Kingdom Hall exhibit the most rude and unkind behavior toward others that have been disfellowshipped. HAUGHTY is not Christian like and being directed to behave in a haughty manor is even worse. Perhaps the idea of shunning has been blown way out of proportion within the wtbts, at least in the US.

  rude

  One entry found for rude.

  Main Entry: rude

  Pronunciation: 'rüd Function: adjective

  synonyms RUDE , mean lacking in social refinement. RUDE implies ignorance of or indifference to good form; it may suggest intentional discourtesy <rude behavior>.

  http://www.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=associate

  Main Entry: 1 as·so·ci·ate
  Pronunciation: &-'sO-shE-"At, -sE- Function: verb
  Inflected Form(s): -at·ed; -at·ing
  Etymology: Middle English associat associated, from Latin associatus, past participle of associare to unite, from ad- + sociare to join, from socius companion -- more at SOCIAL
  transitive verb
  1 : to join as a partner, friend, or companion
  2 obsolete : to keep company with : ATTEND
  3 : to join or connect together : COMBINE
  4 : to bring together or into relationship in any of various intangible ways (as in memory or imagination)
  intransitive verb
  1 : to come or be together as partners, friends, or companions
  2 : to combine or join with other parts : UNITE
  synonym see JOIN

  shun

  One entry found for shun.

  Main Entry: shun
  Pronunciation: 'sh&n Function: transitive verb
  Inflected Form(s): shunned; shun·ning
  Etymology: Middle English shonen, shunnen, from Old English scunian
  : to avoid deliberately and especially habitually <shuns publicity>
  synonym see ESCAPE
  - shun·ner noun

  Romans 16:17 Now I beg you, brothers, look out for those

  ... you, brethren, to keep a watch on those who are causing the divisions among you, and are leading others into sin, in defiance of the instruction which you have received; and habitually to shun them.

  Romans 16 KJV

  17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. 18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

  · 1 Peter 3:11 Let him turn away from evil, and do good. Let him

  Let him shun evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and pursue it. (WBS) 1 Peter 3:11 WEY: Let him turn from evil, and do good; Let him inquire for peace and go in pursuit of it.

  Put it all together along with Romans 16:17 and 1Peter 3:11and you get:

  Shun or avoid deliberately and especially habitually coming together as partners, friends, or companions with those who are causing the divisions among you, and are leading others into sin

  Shun or avoid deliberately evil

  The scriptures discribe the “TYPE” of persons to shun/avoid.

  The wtbts instructs its members to treat someone that may have been disfellowshipped for smoking as though they were evil and attempting to cause divisions within the congregation.

  There IS a difference between evil people and a person that “fell short” or committed a sin. We are all sinners but we are all not evil people.

  The wtbts would not instruct anyone to treat the flag with disrespect, but its own members?

  We may stand, out of respect, when others are saluting the flag so as long as we do not salute it. But do not so much as say hello to a brother or sister that was dfpd for smoking.

  plm
• 

  Gunshy

  Plmkrzy,

  I'll reply to your first thoughts before the post skewed.

  Confirmed drunkards don't go to Kingdom Halls. Confirmed drunkards are in the clubs goggling teenie boppers having a fun night out with the gals.

  Recovering alcoholics trying to get better humbly go back to Kingdom Halls. The key word is "humbly".
• 

  lola28

  I just wanted to welcome Gunshy.

  Gunshy, I DAed myself two weeks ago, I have lost friends that I grew up with, I can't comfort them when they are in pain, I can't rejoyce with them when they are happy, to them I am dead. Yet I'm still me, what I believe in changed, sure, but at the core I'm still Elizabeth. Why has the fact that I changed my mind about this religion made me worthy of death? I'm not a bad person, I don't do anything (aside from posting on this board) that could get me DF, it is heart breaking Gunshy to know that you are a good person but that those you care about will have nothing to do with you only because of this: You grew up and changed what you believed in. Can you explain to me how it is loving to shun someone just because they changed their minds?

  Lola
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  Gunshy

  You see, plmkrzy, your words themselves suggest you are in disagreement with the WTS. Is it your smoking that has you marked until this day or is it your blatant attempts to turn others to your side (divide) and away from the WTS, refusing to give up the unclean thing (smoking) that has you marked?

  The act of smoking in itself displays a blatant disregard for neighbors' health and personal holiness (cleanness). What would one trying to maintain godly conduct have to do with associating with you?

  I am quite thankful I don't have to smell cigarettes in the Kingdom Hall, considering I know how hard it is to give them up. Yet, it can be done if a person wants to be made clean again.
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  dobbie

  Plmkrzy has pointed out just what i was thinking - it is just plain rude!Why can't jws say "hello" to someone no longer in the religion?People who have left for whatever reasons are surely in need of extra kindness not the reverse!It is not a loving arrangement like they say at all - it would'nt bring me back into it, i'd say stuff them. All it does is make them feel like dog poo. It seems a very harsh and cruel punishment and one not worthy of people calling themselves christians or friends, and what is also unfair is that apart from gossip no one really ever knows what the person did wrong in the first place.