Question about shunning from someone who has never been a JW....

by whyizit 111 Replies latest jw friends

  • Gunshy
    Gunshy
    Gunshy~

    How does shunning, "serve to protect Jehovah's name' when someone just decides they want to leave the witnesses and are DA'd?? GYMBB

    Hi Gymbob, A few scriptures immediately come to mind on this one. We know that God has a people who are called by His name. (Ex 6:3; Ps 83:18; Ac 15:14) We know that we are commanded not to stop gathering as a unified people. (Deuteronomy 31:12; Acts 2:42; Hebrews 10:24-25; John 17:26 ) Now, if a person decides to go against the Bible's counsel and remove himself from the "people for His name", stop preaching the good news in association with the "people for His name" (Mt 24:14; 28:19-20) and teach something contrary to these healthful teachings (Galatians 1:6; 2 John 9), what fellowship should a thinking individual that truly knows the scriptures have with such a one? (2 Corinthians 6:14-15) . . .Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? 15 Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Be´li·al? Or what portion does a faithful person have with an unbeliever? The principle is clear that Jesus made at John 17:26 - God's people would share the same love with each other that God has for Jesus. As imperfect humans, where do we find such love? Is it here on this message board? Is this the place where God's people gather? I'm sure some here would like to think so. If so, where's the fruitage? When we find ourselves unhappy with God's arrangement in this imperfect system, do we just throw in the towel and give up? Poor Judas did. If we speak against what God has evidently gathered together, we fall into the category Gamaliel described: (Ac 5:39) . . .YOU may perhaps be found fighters actually against God." The truth is this - if Jehovah's Witnesses are not in fact God's true witnesses, then where are His true witnesses? Can anyone here please tell me? (Ac 1:8)

  • cyberdyne systems 101
    cyberdyne systems 101

    The problem I have is that the assumption that the Witnesses are indeed chosen by God (just as all the other religions believe about themselves). The evidence suggests the contrary (as can be researched through this board - see Best of). So really you are just shunning someone for not having the same beliefs as you. I think the difference here is the way the verses have shown the relationship between believers and unbelievers - in other words these people were not shunned but equaly were not associated with, that is a big difference to what goes on in the witnesses DF arrangement.

    CS 101

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Welcome, gunshy, to the board. It's been a long time since someone has explained the JW position so thoroughly. I hope you stay a while. You have done an excellent job of describing Jesus' holiness. Now, back to whyzit's original question, how does the JW reconcile the shunning policy as practiced by the Witnesses with Jesus' humanity? Is it at all likely, for instance, that Jesus would associate with a smoking Christian? An unclean woman (Luke 8:42-44)? A gentile (Mark 7:26-29)? A follower of a heretic sect (John 4:1-3)? A prostitute (Luke 7:36-38)? A wealthy tax collector (Matthew 9:9-11)? How about a disciple who doubted his divinity? (Matthew 8:25-27, John 20:23-25) Who denied him three times (John 21:17-19)?

    I tell you, that last verse was my salvation when I stumbled as a mature Christian, who should have known better. My pastor was so forgiving, so compassionate. He read to me John 21:17-19, and I was finally able to forgive myself.

  • poppers
    poppers

    Did Jesus actually shun anyone? Honestly, I don't know. Recently a JW lady came to my door and when I expressed doubts about the religion she asked why. I said that it destroyed families because of the shunning. I said, "Deep in your heart you know that it is wrong. Would Jesus do that?" and she said "Yes" and was going to find it in the bible. Instead of letting her do that I pressed my point about how JWs separate families on the pretext of ideas from a book which others have written.

    It is ideas in the mind that people cling to which keep people separate from one another. I tried to get her to see this but she wasn't willing to consider this possibility and practically ran off my property.

  • Gunshy
    Gunshy

    When we begin to reason on what Jesus did versus what Jesus taught, we can gain further insight.

    We all know what Jesus taught his disciples to do when encountering a time waster in the ministry.

    (Luke 9:5) . . .And wherever people do not receive YOU, on going out of that city shake the dust off YOUR feet for a witness against them."

  • stevenyc
    stevenyc

    Well, lets first off discuss then "people who are called by His name". Three scriptures are given; Exodus 6:3, Psalms 83:18, and Acts 15:14.

    Exodus 6:3 reads:

    6:1 God said to Moses, 'Now you will begin to see what I will do to Pharaoh. He will be forced to let them go. [Not only that, but] he will be forced to drive them out of his land.'
    6:2 God spoke to Moses and said to him, 'I am YHV(or W)H.
    6:3 I revealed Myself to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as God Almighty (El Shaddai), and did not allow them to know Me by My name YHV(or W)H.
    6:4 I also made My covenant with them, [promising] to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, where they lived as foreigners.
    6:5 I have also heard the groaning of the Israelites, whom the Egyptians are holding as slaves, and I have remembered My covenant.
    6:6 'Therefore say to the Israelites [in My name], 'I am God. I will take you away from your forced labor in Egypt and free you from their slavery. I will liberate you with a demonstration of My power, and with great acts of judgment.
    6:7 I will take you to Myself as a nation, and I will be to you as a God. You will know that I am God your Lord, the One who is bringing you out from under the Egyptian subjugation.
    6:8 I will bring you to the land regarding which I raised My hand, [swearing] that I would give it to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. I will give it to you as an inheritance. I am God.' '
    6:9 Moses related this to the Israelites, but because of their disappointment and hard work, they would no longer listen to him

    Now lets have a look at the New World Translation


    1 So Jehovah said to Moses: “Now you will see what I shall do to Phar´aoh, because on account of a strong hand he will send them away and on account of a strong hand he will drive them out of his land.”2 And God went on to speak to Moses and to say to him: “I am Jehovah. 3 And I used to appear to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as God Almighty, but as respects my name Jehovah I did not make myself known to them. 4 And I also established my covenant with them to give them the land of Ca´naan, the land of their alien residences in which they resided as aliens. 5 And I, even I, have heard the groaning of the sons of Israel, whom the Egyptians are enslaving, and I remember my covenant. 6 “Therefore say to the sons of Israel, ‘I am Jehovah, and I shall certainly bring YOU out from under the burdens of the Egyptians and deliver YOU from their slavery, and I shall indeed reclaim YOU with an outstretched arm and with great judgments. 7 And I shall certainly take YOU to me as a people, and I shall indeed prove to be God to YOU; and YOU will certainly know that I am Jehovah YOUR God who is bringing YOU out from under the burdens of Egypt. 8 And I shall certainly bring YOU into the land that I raised my hand in oath to give to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; and I shall indeed give it to YOU as something to possess. I am Jehovah.’” 9 Afterward Moses spoke to this effect to the sons of Israel, but they did not listen to Moses out of discouragement and for the hard slavery.

    There is something different about thses two translations. Both use YHWH (interpreted as Jehovah in the NWT) in verses 2 and 3, but look at verse 6, it is an example of interpretation that, it can be aurguded, is used to serve an altiria motive. To explain my reasoning look at verse 3:

    "I revealed Myself to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as God Almighty (El Shaddai), and did not allow them to know Me by My name YHV(or W)H.".

    What does it mean that God not relieve his True name to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, when he did use the Tetragrammaton (YHVH) when speaking with Abraham and Jacob? Well, you have to look at Jewish tradishion of the time. Names had more meaning to them than a simple title to distingush one entity from another. Names were thought to contain power.
    Abraham and Jacob didn't KNOW the name YHWH, and yet they knew and used in writing the name YHWH. Confusing eh? Well, what does it mean to KNOW the name. Or, to be known by the name.

    Check out Exodus 3:13: Nevertheless, Moses said to the [true] God: “Suppose I am now come to the sons of Israel and I do say to them, ‘The God of YOUR forefathers has sent me to YOU,’ and they do say to me, ‘What is his name?’ What shall I say to them?” 14 At this God said to Moses: “I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE.” And he added: “This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, ‘I SHALL PROVE TO BE has sent me to YOU.’”

    So, here is another name of God. Maybe there is another orginization on the planet who identify themselves as “I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE Witnesses.” But this would also be silly.

    “I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE.” or Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh in Hebrew, a Divine Name that denotes that God has absolute existence, and that He is outside the realm of time. As with YHWH, jewish scholars explain this as it denotes God's utter transcendence and also denotes the creative power that constantly sustains the universe. So God here is using His name as kind of "proof of purchase" for Moses. Nowhere is he saying that either Moses of the Israelities shall hensforth be known as, for example, "YHWHs Jews".

    Psalms 83:18: That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You alone are the Most High over all the earth.
    Here the Psalmist is referring to God by the name YHWH, not to any peoples. I have to ask, how do you think it would have gone down if the Pslamist had added an extra verse like this: Pslams 83:19 And, from now on, I am going to be known as Brian, the Jehovah's Jew, For I follow you.

    Acts 15 (I'll quote 1 through 21 below)
    This is a famous debate. We have a bunch of men from Judea who are saying that salvation comes for the Mosaic Law. There was a big argument and so Paul and Barnabas and enturage, went to Jewruselem to seek the councel from the older men and apostles. On there way the stopped at various towns, and the 'people of the nations' conversation was recieved well, being that they were going to finally get the matter sorted out. They met with the older men and Apostles in Jewruselem and it was then that some believing Pharisee converts want to get down to the nitty gritty, and find out whether Moses' Law should be observed. This was a BIG sticking point between those who come from the Jewish tradition, and those who didn't. This is the repy:

    6 And the apostles and the older men gathered together to see about this affair. 7 Now when much disputing had taken place, Peter rose and said to them: “Men, brothers, YOU well know that from early days God made the choice among YOU that through my mouth people of the nations should hear the word of the good news and believe; 8 and God, who knows the heart, bore witness by giving them the holy spirit, just as he did to us also. 9 And he made no distinction at all between us and them, but purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now, therefore, why are YOU making a test of God by imposing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke that neither our forefathers nor we were capable of bearing? 11 On the contrary, we trust to get saved through the undeserved kindness of the Lord Jesus in the same way as those people also.”

    Check verse 8: "Gods knows the heart", and verse 11 "we trust to get saved through the undeserved kindness of the Lord Jesus in the same way as those people also.”

    No mention of a name, no mention that being part of an organization, to attain salvation.

    After they chatted some more this happens:

    James answered, saying: “Men, brothers, hear me. 14 Sym´e·on has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And with this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written, 16 ‘After these things I shall return and rebuild the booth of David that is fallen down; and I shall rebuild its ruins and erect it again, 17 in order that those who remain of the men may earnestly seek Jehovah, together with people of all the nations, people who are called by my name, says Jehovah, who is doing these things, 18 known from of old.’ 19 Hence my decision is not to trouble those from the nations who are turning to God, 20 but to write them to abstain from things polluted by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood

    Verses 16 to 18 are in reference to the Prophet Amos and the rebiulding of Israel. Amos 9: 11 "In that day I will restore David's fallen tent. I will repair its broken places, restore its ruins, and build it as it used to be, 12 so that they may possess the remnant of Edom and all the nations that bear my name, "declares the LORD, who will do these things.

    You have to ask yourself, is he saying that by bearing the name of God is to be called "YHWHs witnesses". They came up with alot sollutions to consolidating the nations during that debate, but what they would call themselves was never of the agenda. Verse 19: Hence my decision is not to trouble those from the nations who are turning to God

    Verse 14: Sym´e·on has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name. Is he saying here that they should call themselves "YHWHs witnesses" or could it be something else?

    The pronouciation is also a guess when it come to translation. The rendering of YHWH to English as Jehovah is from a German mistake many years ago.I would go as far as to say that placing emphesis on the reading and prounciation of a name of god, albeit YHWH, and making the claim that being identified with the old German mistaken prounciation, as proof of being "KNOWN by Gods name" is both divertive and a misunderstanding of the original maening of "KNOWN".

    steve

    Acts 15: 1 And certain men came down from Ju·de´a and began to teach the brothers: “Unless YOU get circumcised according to the custom of Moses, YOU cannot be saved.” 2 But when there had occurred no little dissension and disputing by Paul and Bar´na·bas with them, they arranged for Paul and Bar´na·bas and some others of them to go up to the apostles and older men in Jerusalem regarding this dispute.
    3 Accordingly, after being conducted partway by the congregation, these men continued on their way through both Phoe·ni´cia and Sa·mar´i·a, relating in detail the conversion of people of the nations, and they were causing great joy to all the brothers. 4 On arriving in Jerusalem they were kindly received by the congregation and the apostles and the older men, and they recounted the many things God had done by means of them. 5 Yet, some of those of the sect of the Pharisees that had believed rose up from their seats and said: “It is necessary to circumcise them and charge them to observe the law of Moses.”
    6 And the apostles and the older men gathered together to see about this affair. 7 Now when much disputing had taken place, Peter rose and said to them: “Men, brothers, YOU well know that from early days God made the choice among YOU that through my mouth people of the nations should hear the word of the good news and believe; 8 and God, who knows the heart, bore witness by giving them the holy spirit, just as he did to us also. 9 And he made no distinction at all between us and them, but purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now, therefore, why are YOU making a test of God by imposing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke that neither our forefathers nor we were capable of bearing? 11 On the contrary, we trust to get saved through the undeserved kindness of the Lord Jesus in the same way as those people also.”
    12 At that the entire multitude became silent, and they began to listen to Bar´na·bas and Paul relate the many signs and portents that God did through them among the nations. 13 After they quit speaking, James answered, saying: “Men, brothers, hear me. 14 Sym´e·on has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And with this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written, 16 ‘After these things I shall return and rebuild the booth of David that is fallen down; and I shall rebuild its ruins and erect it again, 17 in order that those who remain of the men may earnestly seek Jehovah, together with people of all the nations, people who are called by my name, says Jehovah, who is doing these things, 18 known from of old.’ 19 Hence my decision is not to trouble those from the nations who are turning to God, 20 but to write them to abstain from things polluted by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. 21 For from ancient times Moses has had in city after city those who preach him, because he is read aloud in the synagogues on every sabbath.”

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul
    Gunshy: The truth is this - if Jehovah's Witnesses are not in fact God's true witnesses, then where are His true witnesses?

    See, from my perspective you only think this is a heavy hitting question because you believe you have found them. There is actually a very simple and reasonable answer to your question that is not at all like the conclusion you have been led to believe. God's true witnesses are in the same place they were in the years:

    • 452 AD
    • 557 AD
    • 629 AD
    • 762 AD
    • 879 AD
    • 991 AD
    • 1022 AD
    • 1145 AD
    • 1235 AD
    • 1342 AD
    • 1427 AD
    • 1511 AD
    • 1673 AD
    • 1799 AD
    • 1844 AD
    • 1874 AD
    • 1925 AD
    • 1995 AD
    • 2006 AD

    As soon as you can demonstrate to me who God's true witnesses were during every one of these years I will take the appropriate steps to reassociate myself to Jehovah's Witnesses. You have a PM. You will need to look in the upper-left corner to find it.

    It gets harder to justify your organizational dogma once you realize it requires 2000 years of indistinct "people" intermingled among the masses of humanity, which could very well be the same today, if we discount the convenient massaging of numbers in the Bible and dates in history in order to lend an air of significance to a specific group.

    It gets incredibly hard to justify their dogma when you realize that it requires imagining that Jehovah was using the Bible Students since 1879 but failed to tell his Son when the time came to choose which group of Christians was the best in 1919, making Jesus search for those who were, per dogma, his brothers all along. Jesus apparently didn't know his own brothers.

    Respectfully,
    AuldSoul

  • Honesty
    Honesty

    We know that Jehovah has called out of the nations a people for His name (Acts 15:14).

    We know that God has a people who are called by His name. (Ex 6:3; Ps 83:18; Ac 15:14) Gunshy

    You are right, Gunshy.

    Acts 11:26 and when he found him he brought him to Antioch. For a whole year they met with the church and taught large numbers, and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    So, according to your reasoning, gunshy, it would be all right for a Christian to speak to:

    • A smoking Christian?
    • An unclean woman (Luke 8:42-44)?
    • A gentile (Mark 7:26-29)?
    • A follower of a heretic sect (John 4:1-3)?
    • A prostitute (Luke 7:36-38)?
    • A wealthy tax collector (Matthew 9:9-11)?
    • How about a disciple who doubted his divinity? (Matthew 8:25-27, John 20:23-25)
    • Who denied him three times (John 21:17-19)?

    But NOT to someone who refuses my message? Perhaps those instructions were to keep the disciples moving and getting the message to as many people as possible in the short time Jesus had with them. In other words, their time would be better spent talking to receptive listeners.

    I wonder if some of those townspeople who originally discarded the disciple's message were in Jerusalem on Pentecost?

  • Gunshy
    Gunshy

    Christ set the pattern for shunning, yet nobody wants to address this:

    (Luke 9:5) . . .And wherever people do not receive YOU, on going out of that city shake the dust off YOUR feet for a witness against them."

    Why is it that few here want to stick with the subject of shunning?

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit