Ghosts, Demons, or Imagination?

by ButtLight 180 Replies latest jw friends

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  Double Edge

  Despite what other people say ultimately you are the ones who are having the experiences. And yes there will always be people telling you what they think it is or is not.

  If you feel the need to 'prove' it to other people (not assuming you do just a thought) then there are some people, many who would be very staunch in not believing you while others might not be.

  TOTALLY AGREE. For people who have NEVER had the experience, they will always "pooh-pooh" it and call it nonsense. For those who have experienced the True para-normal you a left with little doubt. (been there, done that). Some people have a very difficult time believing something scientist can't explain, but then again, scientists can only evaulate the material world - they do not have the tools to do otherwise.
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  ButtLight

  If you feel the need to 'prove' it to other people (not assuming you do just a thought) then there are some people, many who would be very staunch in not believing you while others might not be.

  You have alot of good points! Actually, I have nothing to prove, cause I cant explain alot of things myself. I think I still have alot of JW thinking in my head. Now if you go by the bible, one scripture says when you die, you are no longer concious. I would agree with that. But it says "you", not your spirit. The bible also says, that Saul brought back Samuals spirit and saw him and talked to him. So, that tells me our spirit doesnt die with our bodies! (just my opinion) If Saul can bring back a spirit, why cant others?
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  funkyderek

  JH:

  Well, if it's not subject to the law of physics, then maybe even a camera might not record what has happened, so nothing can prove that it happened, and nothing can prove it didn't happen.

  That's true. In fact, it's true of any claim once you allow "supernatural" explanations. Can you imagine what the world would be like if such claims were routinely made and accepted? Murderers would walk free despite having been seen by dozens of witnesses and leaving their DNA at the scene, because, after all, it's possible that there exists some entity capable and desirous of manipulating people's memories and replicating DNA (or one of the myriad other supernatural "explanations" that would exonerate the real murderer). Nobody could believe anything they see or hear, science would be unable to advance; the world would be in chaos and humanity would be doomed. We can see a microcosm of this in places where superstition vies with rationality for the mind of the people; the more superstitious a society, the more backward and dangerous its members.
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  Double Edge

  That's true. In fact, it's true of any claim once you allow "supernatural" explanations. Can you imagine what the world would be like if such claims were routinely made and accepted? Murderers would walk free despite having been seen by dozens of witnesses and leaving their DNA at the scene, because, after all, it's possible that there exists some entity capable and desirous of manipulating people's memories and replicating DNA (or one of the myriad other supernatural "explanations" that would exonerate the real murderer). Nobody could believe anything they see or hear, science would be unable to advance; the world would be in chaos and humanity would be doomed.

  
  Apples and oranges. First of all there's a difference between the supernatural and superstition (excuse me while I throw some salt over my back).

  Secondly, who's asking that science be replaced? I don't think valid paranormal experiences are "routinely made and accepted....this board proves that. Science is advancing at an ever-increasing pace, and quite nicely, thank you - it's opinion, one way or another, on the paranormal is not neither self-destructive nor facilitative.

  We can see a microcosm of this in places where superstition vies with rationality for the mind of the people; the more superstitious a society, the more backward and dangerous its members.

  We are not Haiti.
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  BlackSwan of Memphis

  That's true. In fact, it's true of any claim once you allow "supernatural" explanations. Can you imagine what the world would be like if such claims were routinely made and accepted? Murderers would walk free despite having been seen by dozens of witnesses and leaving their DNA at the scene, because, after all, it's possible that there exists some entity capable and desirous of manipulating people's memories and replicating DNA (or one of the myriad other supernatural "explanations" that would exonerate the real murderer). Nobody could believe anything they see or hear, science would be unable to advance; the world would be in chaos and humanity would be doomed. We can see a microcosm of this in places where superstition vies with rationality for the mind of the people; the more superstitious a society, the more backward and dangerous its members.

  Oh for pete's sake. No one is talking about allowing murderers and criminals to walk free because of this.

  IF something is taking place that cannot be proven by methods that we have available to us, yet we know something is taking place, wouldn't it make sense to keep moving forward and find a method that will allow us to figure out what is going on?

  If we just keep saying to people who are experiencing things that we cannot explain "you're just crazy" "you're filling your kids head with fantasy" etc how would we be any different then the early astronomers "you're crazy the world is flat dammit"? Maybe there was a point in time (although time is up for speculation anyway) where people could not prove a theory, but the time came when we were able to prove it.

  Sheesh. I think the point is, what if we all just kept an open mind to things? Even things that science has yet to prove or disprove.

  meagan
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  Maryjane

  Some people have a very difficult time believing something scientist can't explain, but then again, scientists can only evaulate the material world - they do not have the tools to do otherwise.

  That's the gist of the "Holographic Universe" book I mentioned earlier in this thread. Science does have the capability of exploring the quantum world beyond the material universe and by doing so sheds much light on so-call paranormal phenomena. You might want to check out some of physicist David Bohm's work...truly mind-blowing stuff.
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  greendawn

  It sounds like an illusory experience he thinks there are things going on when there are none. Fear got to him but I am sure he will overcome it.
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  funkyderek

  Black Swan:

  Oh for pete's sake. No one is talking about allowing murderers and criminals to walk free because of this.

  Why not? There's lots that science doesn't know and people are convicted wrongly all the time. Who are you to say that an alien from the Andromeda galaxy didn't set up the whole thing for reasons that we're too puny to understand?

  IF something is taking place that cannot be proven by methods that we have available to us, yet we know something is taking place, wouldn't it make sense to keep moving forward and find a method that will allow us to figure out what is going on?

  The method exists. It's the scientific method. In the case we're discussing this leads us very quickly to the mundane conclusion that a child had a nightmare. I really don't see the advantage of abandoning such a tried and tested method in favour of primitive superstition.

  If we just keep saying to people who are experiencing things that we cannot explain "you're just crazy" "you're filling your kids head with fantasy" etc how would we be any different then the early astronomers "you're crazy the world is flat dammit"?

  What things we can't explain? A child's nightmare? I can explain that. The real danger is taking things that you can't explain and then automatically accepting any explanation that people can dream up.

  Maybe there was a point in time (although time is up for speculation anyway) where people could not prove a theory, but the time came when we were able to prove it.

  Obviously, we can only use the evidence available to us. If your best defence of a theory is that maybe some day you'll have some supporting evidence, you haven't really got anything.

  Sheesh. I think the point is, what if we all just kept an open mind to things? Even things that science has yet to prove or disprove.

  Having an open mind doesn't mean giving equal weight to rational arguments and fanciful nonsense.
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  silentWatcher

  sounds like somebody has a smurf doll. :-)
  
  -silent
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  Double Edge

  Having an open mind doesn't mean giving equal weight to rational arguments and fanciful nonsense.

  No, but it does mean giving equal weight to individuals' opposing experiences - neither can prove what the other experiences or doesn't.