Talked to JW cousin

by Undecided 86 Replies latest jw friends

  • Sunspot

    I want to know of an example of the apostles teaching wrong doctrine after the holy spirit was poured out.

    I would also like to know of an example of the apostles misunderstanding doctrine after the holy spirit was poured out.

    I want to know of the apostles teaching wrong doctrine and not just asking questions before or after the holy spirit was poured out.

    With all due respect for those who are trying to get a point across to PMJ's teachings and feelings of persecution because we don't agree with what the WTS believes.......can we PLEASE see if he will answer the above questions put to him?


    Come on, PMJ, let's have some answers.....

    Annie.........who is SO tired of the duck & dive antics.

  • coffee_black
    coffee_black one has all the answers. Salvation does not depend on having all the right depends on a one on one relationship with God through Christ. It is the reason that the Bible says not to be followers of men. No human or organization can give you salvation.

    When you stand before your creator you will stand as an individual, not as a group. God will not give you a pop see if you have all the right answers. It is not having the right answers that earn you salvation. God doesn't judge you by how much you know (or think you know).

    The scripture that the society uses (John 17:3) to say that knowledge is what gives you life is a perversion of that scripture. Look in your Interlinear translation and you will see that it actually says that "knowing" God & Christ is what brings salvation. Knowing someone and taking in knowledge about someone are two different things. "taking in knowledge" will not save you. Knowing God (a one on one relationship) will.


  • BizzyBee
    PMJ: You seem very conflicted - you obviously have huge doubts about the WTS having the 'truth' - so you provoke discussions that give you the opportunity to defend it, in order to alleviate your guilt about being a doubter. That works as long as you are on this site, but what about when you wake up in the middle of the night - with those doubts - alone in your own head? It must be pure misery.
    bizzy bee you must be thinking of your self.i dont go to bed with doubts i no my God please dont try judge my heart when you have no idea who i am

    PMJ: I am speaking to you out of compassion, not criticism.

    Most of us here have been in your place – in the organization, but seriously doubting that it really is the truth. As the years go by the doubts don’t go away. It can be absolute HELL. Haven’t you read some of the heartbreaking stories on here of families torn apart, lives ruined, cruel and unloving treatment from witnesses, even lives lost? This is serious – you are a young man with a new family and therefore tremendous responsibilities besides this burden.

    Your pain is obvious and my heart goes out to you – I have grown sons about your age.

    You are not being attacked - we are reaching out to a kindred soul who is so clearly struggling.


  • jwfacts


    in response to your question on the apostles making mistakes, that is a flawed argument. (some of this has already been covered but here goes) Individuals make mistakes, but not those whilst being directed by holy spirit.

    That is a normal WTS counter argument used to dismiss false predictions and mistakes.

    In Reasoning from the Scriptures p. 136 it says”

    “Like the apostles of Jesus Christ, they have at times had some wrong expectations.—Luke 19:11; Acts 1:6”.

    Is this a fitting comparison? It is true that the Apostles had some wrong expectations. However it is interesting to look at the background to each of these. Luke 19:11 says that:

    “While they were listening to these things he spoke in addition an illustration, because he was near Jerusalem and they were imagining that the kingdom of God was going to display itself instantly”.

    This scripture was describing a time when Jesus was still on earth, before the outpouring of Holy Spirit. This is also before these brothers were part of the Governing Body. There are other occurrences where the Apostles were wrong. In Acts 1:6 it shows that the disciples were lacking in understanding whilst Jesus was still on earth, before they received the Holy Spirit, in fact it was foretold that the Holy Spirit was to come to give them power.

    (Acts 1:6) “When, now, they had assembled, they went asking him: “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?” 7 He said to them: “It does not belong to YOU to get knowledge of the times or seasons which the Father , has placed in his own jurisdiction; 8 but YOU will receive power when the Holy Spirit arrives upon YOU.””

    The final occurrence was after Jesus spoke to Peter as recorded at John 21:22, 23:

    “If it is my will for him to remain until I come, of what concern is that to you? You continue following me.” 23 In consequence, this saying went out among the brothers, that that disciple would not die. However, Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but: “If it is my will for him to remain until I come, of what concern is that to you?”

    Once again the saying went out before the outpouring of Holy Spirit. It may or may not have continued amongst the individual brothers, but we see John, one of the Governing Body correcting that view. It was a totally different matter when the disciples were part of the Governing Body. When under the guidance of Holy Spirit these brothers did not make interpretative mistakes and because the understanding was infallible their decisions are contained in the bible.

    It is true that individual apostles made mistakes. Every person is a sinner and can not be expected to say and do the right thing all the time. Peter erred repeatedly and treated the Gentile Christians in a wrongful manner. But in none of his bible writings did he push this incorrect teaching or any other incorrect teaching for us to believe today. Nowhere were incorrect teachings promoted in one New Testament bible book that later required correction by another writer.

    It is the same if we look to the Israelites. The individuals were frequently sinning, as individual Witnesses do today. Moses even sinned with some of his verbal statements. But when Holy Spirit directed Moses to write his 600 commandments for the organisation of Israelites, they all were from God, they all were correct, and to this day are held up as an example of biblical inspiration.

  • jwfacts

    Undecided, your thread has been highjacked but it certainly started an interesting topic.

    It is great to hear what you have done. There comes a time when you realise you can not spend the rest of you life being manipulated by the WTS. If you are unable to talk freely to others about what you believe then a person is still being affected by them. It is good you had to courage to stand up for what you believe in and who knows, it may do some good.

  • ackack

    Someone asked about an example of the apostles teaching something "wrong" after the holy spirit was poured out.

    Wouldn't the apostles teaching about circumcision in Acts 15 qualify?


  • jwfacts

    When the Christians were being guided by holy spirit they always spoke truth, when not they didnt. It is the same in the OT. When moses was being directed by God he spoke truth, but that did not stop him then going and saying the wrong thing when striking the rock.

    For that reason the circumcision issue was being spoken wrongly by individuals. But when they convenened as a group and prayed for the guidanance of holy spirit they came up with the solution.

    The WTS GB trys to follow the bible and pray for holy spirit to direct their interpretation of new doctrine, yet have regularly have promoted wrong ones. It is fine for an individual GB member to say a mistake in conversation. But to pray for holy spirit, write the decision in the Watchtower, say it is to be accepted as the 'voice of God', and then later change it because it was wrong is an entirely different thing. How would you feel if in Acts the apostles said circumsion was no longer necessary, and then to have John say in Revelation that the GB was wrong and we all (at least all the males) need to get circumcised after all? You could have no confidence in the bible.

  • AuldSoul

    Not really, ackack. But that would be a good attempt. There is no indication that anyone other than some from the sect of the Pharisees were still trying to impose the law of Moses. Paul, who wasn't teaching that, said he was sent up to Jerusalem as a result of a revelation. The spirit was directly against adhering to the law covenant.


  • John Doe
    John Doe

    "mrs jones you havent a clue who i am.for your information im very humble dont claim to no me over a computer.mrs jones as soon i as i came on this website and you found out i was a gave me a hard time wanting to prove im dont complain when i stand up for what i beleave"

    How many times must a humble man say he's humble? Shouldn't humility be self-evident?

    Here is the fundamental problem I have with Jehovah's Witnesses. I'm not putting you down, and I'm not claiming to be 100% right, but I am making a point. How can a religion be loving that separates families (wait, I'm not through, keep reading) when some family members refuse to lead double lives and be untrue to their conscience? That's what it boils down to. If I don't believe what the congregation tells me to believe, I'm supposed to keep quiet and pretend I do believe. I'm not supposed to question, I'm supposed to be false to my conscience. I do not believe what the Witnesses teach, and according to them this makes me evil and unfit for association. They would have my own mother, my flesh and blood, deny even speaking to me. Does this sound like humility, PMJ?

  • Undecided

    Wow. I didn't know I would start a debate. I told him I didn't mind others believing what ever made them happy but I didn't follow it any longer. Honestly, when you look at God in the Hebrew bible and the way Christ describes him, it is two different Gods. I just can't accept the bible as being anything other than a man made religious book. Would someone explain Revelation to me as being useful to us today? If it is so important for us to understand God don't you think he could have inspired a better guide book so we would at least be able to identify the real truth there?

    Ken P.

Share this