Health Care: A Right or a Privilege?

by prophecor 401 Replies latest members politics

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  LDH

  Private heath care is not good value for money.

  Wrong. For every stockholder, it's a GREAT value.

  Lisa

  No stocks in healthcare Class
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  FlyingHighNow

  Time after time, the VOTERS ("aka" American Citizens) do NOT want Government involved in the healthcare industry anymore than they are now.

  Abaddon, we American voters do not get to vote as to whether or not we get to have universal healthcare. Our law makers make the laws. They are either intimidated by big business private medicene or they have vested, lucrative interest in keeping our system as it is. We regular citizens have very little say so in these laws. When Bill and Hillary started making noises about universal healthcare, they began to be investigated for every thing under the sun. Bill and Hillary were kept busy in court defending themselves for mistakes many of those that went after them were guilty of as well. That stopped universal healthcare in its tracks, once again.
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  Abaddon

  flying

  Abaddon, we American voters do not get to vote as to whether or not we get to have universal healthcare. Our law makers make the laws. They are either intimidated by big business private medicene or they have vested, lucrative interest in keeping our system as it is.

  Precisco-mundo; as per earlier comments, the greatest 'victory' of the American political system is how those who don't really benefit from it frequently have very little idea how disadvantaged and powerless they actually are as individuals, and consistnetly vote for such policies because they think it might give them a step on the gravey train, and because they are misinformed regarding cost and don't realise they'd pay less as an individual with a public system, even if some of their money would also pay for the healthcare of 'parasites'. LDH To clarify (as I have been emphasising what a bad deal to individuals and society private health care is (unless they own shares, which is rather obviously what I am saying shouldn't be possible (unless such private concerns compete with public ones)), I am saying that a/ healthcare is a right (see original comment re. wolves), b/ is a "minor" expense (see original comment re. aircraft carriers) to a developed society, and therefore c/ should be free for all at point of need d/ with the funds raised through taxation, which e/ ensures the lowest cost per person AND f/ universal coverage, again, g/ to the benefit of society. It's win win win for most people. Some companies lose a way of making money, oh boo-hoo for them. You don't have to agree with me. But I think you're choice of employment speaks volumes regarding what system YOU would build from the ground up
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  LDH

  To clarify (as I have been emphasising what a bad deal to individuals and society private health care is (unless they own shares, which is rather obviously what I am saying shouldn't be possible (unless such private concerns compete with public ones)), I am saying that a/ healthcare is a right (see original comment re. wolves), b/ is a "minor" expense (see original comment re. aircraft carriers) to a developed society, and therefore c/ should be free for all at point of need d/ with the funds raised through taxation, which e/ ensures the lowest cost per person AND f/ universal coverage, again, g/ to the benefit of society. It's win win win for most people. Some companies lose a way of making money, oh boo-hoo for them. You don't have to agree with me. But I think you're choice of employment speaks volumes regarding what system YOU would build from the ground up

  Abaddon I agree with most of what you say. However, that's not how its done, and throughout the thread I have tried to present reasons why Americans don't do it that way. Some reasons I agree with, some I don't. Either way, I'm just 1 person.

  My strongest personal reason that I don't want medicine socialized, is the example we have of a socialized retirement. We call it Social Security. It should be called Social Insecurity. It's horrible that a system that I will HAVE pay into for some 40 years, I will have no benefit of based on current calculations.

  I made a calculated move to the non-profit health insurance world, but it's still health insurance. It's still voluntary. And there are still premiums to pay. I didn't go to work for the government.

  FHN, What state do you live in that you don't get vote? Are you even a registered voter? In California alone for the past several years we have had ballots put to the people. Most recently, AB 2 which would have required companies with less than 200 employers to provide healthcare on a mandatory basis. This was voted down by the people.
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  FlyingHighNow

  
  I live in Michigan. I am a registered voter. I vote. The law you mention was probably poorly written and therefore voted down. Some small businesses would need subsidies or deals on insurance premiums in order to do that.

  Your example hardly covers the rest of us, who work for huge companies that carefully keep most of their employees from becoming eligible for health insurance benefits. Here again you are speaking of private insurance and not universal health care. You are speaking of voting out laws that would require small businesses to carry health care insurance for their employees. Sadly, there is a way out for any sized business: just require your employees to work a minimum number of hours each year and make sure they can't accrue the hours. Other ways would be to pay wages so low that the employees cannot afford to pay the premiums.

  So really, Cali voters didn't vote for government to stay out of health care, they voted to keep small businesses from being required to find a way to insure their full time employees. Huge difference between that and citizens deciding we don't want the feds finding a way to ensure that all US citizens have affordable access to unversal health care. Sure, greedy big medical businesses and the private health insurance industry don't want Uncle Sam to mess with their sky high stacks of money. That is by far not the majority of American voters.

  I may want for there to be sidewalks in my town. I may vote against a poorly written law that says private citizens will have to reach into their own pockets and hire a concrete company and a sidewalk company to build them. That doesn't mean I don't want sidewalks. It doesn't mean I don't want the government to ensure that sidewalks be built. It means that the strip of land where the sidewalks would be is owned by the city, the right of way, and I pay taxes for them to provide sidewalks. Since I can't afford to pay for sidewalk to be built in front of my house, I vote agasint the law.

  Your statement to Abaddon about American voters and health care is misrepresentative. Americans have not been allowed to vote on universal healthcare.
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  Kaethra

  Flyinghigh - I would just like to give you kudos for your reasoned and sincere responses to this thread. I think you have done an admirable job of presenting your side of a highly emotional issue....so high-fives to you, kiddo! Personally, I find the lack of government-provided healthcare in the U.S. to be appalling. Of course, I do speak as a Canadian. I've been born and bred under our universal healthcare plan. I'm pretty healthy and I've rarely had to use my MSI number. But I am certainly grateful that it is there when I need it and I am glad it was there when my father first started having seizures at age 49. My father died within two years of his brain cancer diagnosis. It was a huge shock and tragedy for our family...but at least we never had to even think about who was going to pay for his doctor's visits, radiotherapy, and various medications. My mother was able to keep the house that she and my father had paid for and raised their children in; mom kept the business that she and dad had worked their asses off for; and mom kept the income that she has lived on ever since. Yeah, it's not a perfect system. You will have to wait for the non-essential stuff. I've been waiting for over a year now just to get a consult with a plastic surgeon. The only reason that the consult is covered by MSI, btw, is because it's concerning a small cyst that is wrapped up in the nerves of one of my fingers and causes occasional pain. If it was for a boob job, it wouldn't be covered. (Although I wouldn't mind having an extra cup size added on to the girls...oh well...at least I have no implant scars!)
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  FlyingHighNow

  Flyinghigh - I would just like to give you kudos for your reasoned and sincere responses to this thread. I think you have done an admirable job of presenting your side of a highly emotional issue....so high-fives to you, kiddo! Personally, I find the lack of government-provided healthcare in the U.S. to be appalling.

  Thank you. I find the lack of universal health care in the US appalling, too.

  Who are the real parasites by the way? When drug companies can charge hundreds of dollars for a month's supply of one medication for one person? Who is sucking from whom? When you can pay $12 for one asprin tablet in the hospital or $32 for a tampon while hospitalized. When you can receive a liter sized bag of saline IV solution with no medication in it and be charged $100 just for the bag and the salt water in it, I ask you,"Who is the parasite?" The owners of the medical care and drug companies are the parsites. They feed off all of us.
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  LDH

  Your example hardly covers the rest of us, who work for huge companies that carefully keep most of their employees from becoming eligible for health insurance benefits.

  FHN,

  I know enough about the industry to know that this is not true of CAREER companies. This is true of companies like WalMart, where little talent is required to work for them 'full-time.' Most "HUGE" companies in this country give full benefits after 30 days at no cost to the employee! If the employee wishes to cover their family, they pay a subsidy. This is no secret.

  If you have a complaint with WalMart, QUIT WORKING THERE. If you have a complaint with your employer, QUIT WORKING THERE. I don't like WalMart's corporate policy, so I don't SHOP THERE.

  You have no coverage anyway, what are you losing? NOTHING!!!! Low wages and no benefits. Your complaint should be with your employer, not 'national health care.' If you work for this type of company they have sent you a clear message that they do not value you.

  Since you work for a 'huge' company, that 'carefully keep most of their employees from becoming eligible for health insurance' please tell us who this beast is so that none of us get roped into working for them too!

  It's a free country, FHN. Thank God.
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  LDH

  So really, Cali voters didn't vote for government to stay out of health care, they voted to keep small businesses from being required to find a way to insure their full time employees.

  Wrong. California voters don't even want the government dictating that a company is required to have health care, much less run the program. You missed the point.

  Don't you know that CA voters are the workers, the people?

  I have taken a position on this thread that is not liked quite obviously--but it doesn't stop others from sending me private messages telling me I am right. Shall I post those too?

  I'll make a deal. When the bean counters can figure out how to get me all of the money I'm being forced to pay into the Social Security system, I'll vote for nationalized healthcare. Not before.

  It's curious that argument hasn't been addressed once.
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  wednesday

  
  
  

  know enough about the industry to know that this is not true of CAREER companies. This is true of companies like WalMart, where little talent is required to work for them 'full-time.' Most "HUGE" companies in this country give full benefits after 30 days at no cost to the employee! If the employee wishes to cover their family, they pay a subsidy. This is no secret.

  
  

  
  LDH,

  A good portion of the usa works at jobs, not careers companies. Poor people, people with average or below average jobs don't get the same options you do. They don't have careers, they have a paycheck.