A good portion of the usa works at jobs, not careers companies. Poor people, people with average or below average jobs don't get the same options you do. They don't have careers, they have a paycheck
Perhaps this is where planning would come in.
Health Care: A Right or a Privilege?
by prophecor 401 Replies latest members politics
-
LDH
-
Abaddon
Public welfare, pension and health are different things, although there are links.
With pensions, it has been a 'trust' system; you pay when you work for those who are retired, and when you retire those working pay for you. The demographic changes in the developed worl have effectively sput a spanner in the works.
The number of workers per retired person has fallen from what it was in the sixties to what it is now and will fall more. The retired population is set to grow as people live longer. At the same time the average number of children per woman has fallen, further worsening the ratio of working to retired people.
There are two ways of retaining the current system, used either independantly or together in some way.
The first is immigration. Immigrants, to be blunt, breed like crazy for at least a generation. Lots of young people working to pay for the 'natives' retirement.
The second is to raise the retirement age. This will lower the number of retired people to a level that can be supported by the working population.
As public pension systems are already in trouble, we can't go back and make the situation better. Billions of dollars/pounds/euros can't appear out of thin air.
If nothing is done, retired people will have to make do on less.
All three options, immigration, raising retrement age, and a poorer retired population have their pros and cons, an their lobby groups.
As many people with private schemes, either entered into privately or through companies, are in the same boat, either due to mismanagement of funds or underperformance of investments, this really isn't a 'one-system is better' thing.
Welfare I leave as another can or worms, LOL.
Healthcare is obviously influenced by the demographic issue, but the effects of an aging population are not as pronounced, as with pensions, the amount per person is set whilst with health it will vary, although trending higher than younger people.
Obviously an effecient public health system without the gross distortions of a profit-based system is far more likely to deliver lower cost per patient at a point where members of an aging population will be increasing likely to need healthcare each year.
Obviously LDH we're agreeing to disagree on some issues here
I know what I'd prefer in a country I live in, and I'm lucky enough to live somewhere I get what I want.
Maybe part of the issue is we have different ideas of what society is? I don't mean that in any critical way, please understand.
I see the public benefit fom an inclusive society where even the less fortunate are cared for as higher than a more discriminating system. I know that people can aspire to anything no matter their background, but exceptions prove rules. The average income of a black American male, and how much it has changed as a percentage of white males income leaves us with two non-exclusive alternatives.
One is related to the average personal qualities of people in a population - if it is just a question of effort, then surely making more effort is what is required?
The other is that one's background and how society reacts to one because of background (including race) has a very real influence on one's chance of prosperity, and to blame those who suffer such disadvantage is illogical.
The links between one's personal wherewithall and background are obvious.
If it is 'societies' fault that some groups suffer disadvantage then surely the unfairness is compounded if they then suffer further disadvantagement because they cannot access the same healthcare as those born (to paint it in big bold colours) three blocks away and white, largely due to those differences?. Not that white people can't also be disadvantaged by background, but look at the stats.
Rather than asking whether healthcare is a right or a privelige, maybe we should ask if society has right to disadvantage some? In fact, forget the 'maybe'.
-
rebuilding
I have been following this thread for a while and have found it very interesting. When I joined the Army I kept my private insurance, then I got hurt. Guess what... The insurance company refused to pay for private medical care. I am still trying to figure out what I was paying for all that time.
I think it is time the American people had the opportunity to vote on public medical care. Not to completely end the private system we have, but to add to it. There is no reason why medical insurance cannot be sold as an addition to public care. A car may be faster and more convenient than walking but walking does work, for just about everyone. It should be our decision, not the politicians and special interest lobbyists. I will be writing each of the candidates running for office in my area for their opinion and make it clear what I expect. Perhaps I can get a group together; we passed the $30 auto licensing. Why not?
Rebuilding – (wants the best deal for her dollar) -
LDH
The first is immigration. Immigrants, to be blunt, breed like crazy for at least a generation. Lots of young people working to pay for the 'natives' retirement.
The second is to raise the retirement age. This will lower the number of retired people to a level that can be supported by the working population.
Hi there Abaddon. The retirement age has already been raised. It used to be 65, for me it is 67 1/2.
I hear ya on the immigration thing. The problem is I am not to keen on out of control population growth. What to do.....
I guess they have a ton of babies before they figure out they have to pay for it, LOL.
I have been following this thread for a while and have found it very interesting. When I joined the Army I kept my private insurance, then I got hurt. Guess what... The insurance company refused to pay for private medical care. I am still trying to figure out what I was paying for all that time.
Rebuilding,
1. Thank you for joining the thread, no matter your opinion.
2. Thank you for serving in the Army.
3. Did you get hurt while in the Armed Services? If so, private policies do not pay for Armed Services injuries.
I think it is time the American people had the opportunity to vote on public medical care. Not to completely end the private system we have, but to add to it. There is no reason why medical insurance cannot be sold as an addition to public care.
Absolutely agree. Now we are back to talking about the Lexus and the Yugo of health care, and some won't like that, you realize.
Lisa
-
FlyingHighNow
I'll vote for nationalized healthcare.
Unless the government ever puts this option out there for a vote, you won't. And on Social Security, all of us "poor planners" have to pay it, too. And don't hold your breath on getting to make decisions about it either.
Lisa, you may not be a millionaire as you say, but you do say you pay taxes at a 30% rate. That means either you have a very high income, or you don't shelter your money very well. At any rate, you aren't in touch with how most of America lives. And if everyone "planned" so well that they didn't work regular jobs, who would work those jobs? Think about it, if we all had high paying, upper jobs, who would hold all of the "poor planner" and peon jobs?
You keep coming back to this thread to dig yourself deeper with those who do not have insurance, or those from other more civilized countries who tell you how ludicrous they think our lack of universal healthcare is.
It wouldn't be proper for you to post PM's from those who agree with you. Why don't they just post their views? Maybe on some level their consciences have been pricked.
-
rebuilding
Q/private policies do not pay for Armed Services injuries./Q
Private policies don't cover on the job injuries either. And if you have a second policy they both want the other one to pay first, and...
The list of things they won't cover is ridiculous. National healthcare could take care of all the cracks without making people jump through a bunch of hoops. People who are too sick to jump in the first place. With continuing the option of insurance for private care I think we could find a happy medium that would help keep everyone healthy.
Yes, I got hurt in the military. If anyone ever needs help understanding the VA paperwork I am happy to help.
LDH - I am glad you agree that both systems can work side by side.
rebuilding - (working on her nationalized healthcare to do list.) -
LDH
you may not be a millionaire as you say, but you do say you pay taxes at a 30% rate. That means either you have a very high income,
We earn enough.
And if everyone "planned" so well that they didn't work regular jobs, who would work those jobs? Think about it, if we all had high paying, upper jobs, who would hold all of the "poor planner" and peon jobs?
This reads like an excuse, and this is a red herring of an argument. Perhaps you should do some research on the countries you so admire (Nordic) and see how they address these issues. You are confusing 'regular jobs' with 'menial jobs.' A plumber holds a 'regular job.' A hotel maid holds a 'menial job.'
I hope you don't have children, you don't seem to know how to encourage people to do their best. Almost every one of your arguments is an excuse for the poor. Even Jesus said, "The poor will always be with us." So at some level you have to accept that no matter how much you do for others, there are some who will just take and take and take. Even in the bible, orphans were allowed to glean for leftovers, not take the first pick!
Terry is correct, the only way to address systematic poverty is through voluntary charity, not more government entitlement programs.
Even Rebuilding's quote
There is no reason why medical insurance cannot be sold as an addition to public care. A car may be faster and more convenient than walking but walking does work, for just about everyone.
shows you that with a basic level of public health care, there will always be others who will afford a fancier car. You haven't yet shown what's wrong with that. People who work for more deserve more.
I taught my daughter a long time ago, this society pay$ people who work with their minds, not their hands.
Lisa
Cla$$ Class
-
LDH
I've found this rather interesting link from the UN statistics page. It appears that with all of our evil health insurance scams, compared to countries who have socialized health care, we rank right behind or even with them on the UN HDI scale (Human Development Index).
Take a look at these statistics.
Interesting, huh? Especially given the fact that we as a country have continued to absorb MILLIONS of immigrants.....
-
SixofNine
Jusus Christ in an abulatory state of cross-bearing, Lisa, why do you keep arguing with yourself? "You haven't yet shown what's wrong with that. People who work for more deserve more."..... "Now we are back to talking about the Lexus and the Yugo of health care, and some won't like that, you realize."
Who? Who are these horrible, small, people??? Guess what? Terrorist don't hate us for our freedoms, and working class Americans don't begrudge rich people the occasional boobjob (or any other medical procedure money can buy, but the trickle down from boobjobs inspired the mention).
Hell, even Cuba has doctors that work privately, in addition to their stellar public healthcare system. Why do we hate Cuba again... for their freedom?
-
sammielee24
I taught my daughter a long time ago, this society pay$ people who work with their minds, not their hands
...thats why we pay scientists less than we do our sports heros...thats why an actor earns more than a teacher....models earning more in a day than a nurse in a year...