Date Rape - What is it? WARNING some graphic details

by Lady Lee 89 Replies latest members adult

funkyderek

Even if they have not physically forced you to have sex with them, if they tried to manipulate you or coerce you into having sex when you didn't want to (like if they say 'you'd do it if you really loved me' or 'you're frigid'), this is still sexual abuse.

No it isn't. It's just rudeness. It's disgusting to equate a violent act like rape with somebody changing their mind.
Using pressure is not the same as using force. Threatening to break up with someone who won't have sex with you is not the same as threatening to kill them. The difference is one of kind, not merely of degree. Ending a relationship over a partner's refusal to have sex is a perfectly legitimate thing to do. The initiation of violence can never be justified.
Dating violence is more likely to happen when the aggressor has been drinking. This often leads people to blame alcohol for the problem. In fact, abusers themselves use alcohol as an excuse for being violent.
Sexual abuse includes .... attempting or having intercourse with a person who is under the influence of alcohol or drugs.
Why are men held responsible for their actions when they are intoxicated when women are not?
Lady Lee

FD contrary to what many people think rape is not always violent in terms of physical force. It is very possible for one person to say"If you don't do what I want , I will *****" and "pressure" the person into submission. Their not fighting does not imply consent. The lack of physical force does not imply a lack of violence.
If someone attacked me and my daughters and said do what I want or I will rape your daughters you can believe I will do what he wants. That doesn't mean I agree to sex. It means I was coerced.
If you notice every example you quoted comes from a reputable websife on violence and date rape. Those were unedited uncommented upon posts. Those are defintions to go to court with.
People have very inventive ways to coerce others to do what they want. It is called mind control. Ever heard of it. It can force submission to unwanted sexual acts. It can force parents to abandon children to a book-seeling organization. Mind control is just as violent to the mind as a fist is to the body
Ending a relationship over a partner's refusal to have sex is a perfectly legitimate thing to do.
Perhaps if someone refused to ever have sex with you but the occasional refusal?
I spent 15 years in a marriage where I was reminded on a daily basis that unless I provided the "marital due" he would be forced to commit adultery and I would be blood-guilty for his sin. He never had to physically force me. Even when the doctors said no sex because I was in a high risk pregnancy and was on total bed rest and had almost lost the baby. Even when I was in so much pain from a pinched nerve in my neck and wearing a cervical collar and on heavy pain meds. Even though he stated that if I didn't give him what was his right to take that he would get angry and I wouldn't want to see him angry. In any of those situation a loving husband would have considered his wife's condition and not coerced her into submission.
As for your comments about intoxication. Well I personally don't think getting passed out drunk is a smart thing to do. But just because someone is drunk doesn't mean anyone has the right to have sex with them and then refuse responsibility for their actions. She might be responsible for getting drunk She is not responsible for someone coming along and taking advantage of her condition and the rape that might happen
StinkyPantz

FD-
Why are men held responsible for their actions when they are intoxicated when women are not?

Who says they aren't? If a man is drunk and a woman manages to sodomize him with an object, she has committed a criminal act; she is responsible.
If you are asking why a man is responsible when both are drunk, I have often wondered the same thing.
It's disgusting to equate a violent act like rape with somebody changing their mind.
Like Lady Lee said, rape is not always violent.
wednesday

Meat Loaf did a song a few years ago called"Where the Rubber meets the road..". a few lines from it
"Ya say girl your a beauty, But i'm no beast. I got a little contract right here....See, you can slam on the brakes Anytime u got the stick. even if we're in fouth gear. Cop in the front seat. lawyer in the back seat. Gettin' it on videotape. Got a shrink in the bed Lord, sittin' on the headboard.Swearin' that we both got raped.."
No does mean No. Even , as Meat Loaf say, even if your in fourth gear. being the mother of 2 sons, and having been victim of rape, i can see both sides. The man that raped me set out and planned this. We were not on a date, and things went a little too far. he was a predator, he trapped me. When my hubby and i were dating , as jws, he got a bit carried away at times, and really wanted to "do it" I siad, "no" and he was mad, but he stopped. was i inviting him? yes, i was, but no is still no. Should someone have shoved a boot up my arse for behaving in that mannner? yes i think so, b/c i really said "yes and No" In this regard, the scripture that says, "let your yes mean yes, and your no mean no" I tried to teach my sons that. No means no, even if does not seem so fair.
In many ways i see the dating scence now as dangerous for both male and female. young people with hormones in high gear. Someone is gonna get hurt. I believe there is a difference between date rape, and a young couple that gets carried away and later one party regrets what they did. the old expression"it takes two to tango" is true, barring someone one drugs u, or forces u. Pls do not take what i say to mean that a girl get what she deserves. that is crazy.
funkyderek

FD contrary to what many people think rape is not always violent in terms of physical force. It is very possible for one person to say"If you don't do what I want , I will *****" and "pressure" the person into submission. Their not fighting does not imply consent. The lack of physical force does not imply a lack of violence.
If someone attacked me and my daughters and said do what I want or I will rape your daughters you can believe I will do what he wants. That doesn't mean I agree to sex. It means I was coerced.
No, that means you were forced. Nobody has the right to threaten violence to get what they want. They do have the right to end a relationship or complain about it.
If you notice every example you quoted comes from a reputable websife on violence and date rape. Those were unedited uncommented upon posts. Those are defintions to go to court with.
That doesn't make them right. The increasingly loose definitions of rape are something to worry about, especially when these are upheld in court.
Ending a relationship over a partner's refusal to have sex is a perfectly legitimate thing to do.

Perhaps if someone refused to ever have sex with you but the occasional refusal?
Yes. It wouldn't make you a very nice person but anybody has the right to end a consensual relationship at any time for any reason. Or don't you agree?
I spent 15 years in a marriage where I was reminded on a daily basis that unless I provided the "marital due" he would be forced to commit adultery and I would be blood-guilty for his sin.... Even though he stated that if I didn't give him what was his right to take that he would get angry and I wouldn't want to see him angry.
There was what amounts to a death threat and an implied threat of violence. You were afraid that if you said no, harm would come to you. I agree, that's abusive behaviour.
As for your comments about intoxication. Well I personally don't think getting passed out drunk is a smart thing to do. But just because someone is drunk doesn't mean anyone has the right to have sex with them and then refuse responsibility for their actions. She might be responsible for getting drunk She is not responsible for someone coming along and taking advantage of her condition and the rape that might happen.
If she is raped while drunk then she is no more responsible than if she were sober, but she is responsible if she consents to sex while drunk.
frenchbabyface

Lady Lee : First this is TERRIBLE ! (Childhood ! Marriage !)
I have to ask you a question : DID it come to your mind At least ONCE to KILL your FATHER and HUSBAND to get RID of them ... Or at least STRIKE them with basball BAT and RUN AWAY ... Even when they were assleep ... !
If YES ... what didn't you ?
If NOT ... why ??????????
I need to understand that (I know you're not the only one who didn't react a lot didn't and still are in this position) I just need to understand why ... If you don't mind answering thoses questions
funkyderek

Who says they aren't? If a man is drunk and a woman manages to sodomize him with an object, she has committed a criminal act; she is responsible.

Yes, unless he consents to the sodomizing, and then regrets it in the morning, in which case he has learned a valuable life lesson but has not been raped.
If you are asking why a man is responsible when both are drunk, I have often wondered the same thing.
That's part of it. And while I think it's despicable of someone to take advantage of someone who's drunker than they are, that's all it is - taking advantage. It's not rape.
Like Lady Lee said, rape is not always violent.
Yes it is.Rape necessarily involves the use of force, the threat of force or another violation of the victim's rights. Otherwise it is not rape.
Lady Lee

FBF
I have to ask you a question : DID it come to your mind At least ONCE to KILL your FATHER and HUSBAND to get RID of them ... Or at least STRIKE them with basball BAT and RUN AWAY ... Even when they were assleep ... !
If YES ... what didn't you ?
If NOT ... why ??????????
Yes I thought about killing them but I was a child with my father. I was terrified of him. I was scared that if I tried to hurt him and didn't escape he would kill me. I had seen him attack my mother many times. If he could attack her I knew he could kill me.
As for my husband if I killed him then I would go to jail and who would take care of my children. Fear can make us stop. And as a loyal JW God would punish me for murder
I need to understand that (I know you're not the only one who didn't react a lot didn't and still are in this position) I just need to understand why ... If you don't mind answering thoses questions
I left the ex-husband (an elder in the JWs) 18 years ago and left the JWs at the same time. I am now married to a kind and gentle man who would never dream of this kind of behavior. When some children have lived in fear their whole lives they learn very young not to fight. That fighting makes things worse. A child learns that they are small and powerless over a much bigger person. They learn it is better to be quiet and wait for the danger to go away. I learned this very very young and it stayed with me for many many years. That is why I think the courses you talked about are important for some people to help them learn to protect themselves and get past that part of them that freezes so they can't do anything
Lady Lee

<sigh>
FD where exactly would you draw the line?
I agree people have a right to end a relationship whenever they want but if saying "Sorry not tonight dear I have a headache" means he walks then that amount to blackmail. Granted I would be better off with a scumbag who disregards my feels so much but it doesn't change the fact that he uses blackmail (a threat of leaving) to get what he wants
As for the info on the websites - well if you don't like the laws you could campaign to have them changed. In the meantimes it might be wise to examine your rights carefully to protect yourself. I think it is very important that men be just as informed about these rules of sexual behavior as the women are.
Your comments about both being drunk and she gives consent - well I think I would agree with you. It would be hard to go later and say that the consent is negated because I was drunk. _ see I'm not totally unreasonable :)
funkyderek

FD where exactly would you draw the line?

Exactly at the point where somebody's rights are violated.
I agree people have a right to end a relationship whenever they want but if saying "Sorry not tonight dear I have a headache" means he walks then that amount to blackmail. Granted I would be better off with a scumbag who disregards my feels so much but it doesn't change the fact that he uses blackmail (a threat of leaving) to get what he wants
It's not blackmail. People put conditions on relationships all the time. Anyone who does that is indeed a scumbag, but he's not a rapist.
As for the info on the websites - well if you don't like the laws you could campaign to have them changed. In the meantimes it might be wise to examine your rights carefully to protect yourself. I think it is very important that men be just as informed about these rules of sexual behavior as the women are.
The laws are often subjective and as in many areas, the PC brigade seems to be winning. It seems to come down to if a woman "feels" she's been raped - even after the fact, then she has been. That's dangerous, both for innocent men and for genuine rape victims.
Your comments about both being drunk and she gives consent - well I think I would agree with you. It would be hard to go later and say that the consent is negated because I was drunk. _ see I'm not totally unreasonable :)
And yet people have been prosecuted in these situations because both of them were drunk but only one of them was a man.

Date Rape - What is it? WARNING some graphic details

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