Can any believer answer this?

by LucidSky 116 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • pomegranate
    pomegranate
    The first is the nature of Gods omnipotence. The assumption is that God knows every thing you do at every moment. He knows for example in five minutes you will take a crap :). This is preposterous. God in awarding freewill to man is providing him liberty to act independently within limits. In this way man is a interactive player in Gods game of life.

    First Zech, in order for me to follow that, I would need to see a scripture that says God DOESN'T KNOW everything. For instance, I hold my position because of this:

    Heb 4:13
    13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
    1 John 3:20
    For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.

    John 16:29-30
    Now we can see that you know all things and that you do not even need to have anyone ask you questions. This makes us believe that you came from God."

    John 21:17
    Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, "Do you love me?" He said, "Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you."

    So, according to the above, God DOES KNOW everything. From what Bible passages are you adhereing to your position?

    I also do not believe man has freewill. I believe only God has freewill, of which everyone else is subjected to. Freewill means your life is your own to decide and do as one sees fit. But the Bible makes clear, that the life we have is not our own, and that it IS NOT ours to decide what to do.

    Jer 10:23
    I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own;
    it is not for man to direct his steps.

    Ezek 18:4
    4 For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son-both alike belong to me.

    If what you say is true, "God in awarding freewill to man is providing him liberty to act independently within limits," man's life would be his own to direct his steps as he saw fit, limits or no limits. I believe man is NOT a player, he is a game piece. Worse than that, he is the LEAST game piece, a pawn. And as a pawn, you or I have no say as to how we are to be played by the Player. We move according to Him who moves us.

    As a actor in the Grand Drama of life each man receives a script that is a guide for what he should do and say. He is free to deliver his performance in his own way in his own language with his own feelings. The important thing is that Gods will be done.

    Support your position with the Bible. Freewill is God's alone, of which Satan claimed HE HAS, and has diseminated as something each living being has possession of. Only God is free. It is unture to say anyone but God has freewill

    God knows in his game of life what each door opens to. He knows where every path leads. He knows the final outcome of one choosing certain doors and paths. Just as in literal stage productions there are understudies for roles there is such in real life.

    He knows who is/was going to be his or not from the beginning. Anything less then that is God relying on chaos. God has programmed this age, with all the different people in it to go exactly the way he wants. Each "LOOP" and "SUBROUTINE" are known and accounted for. Every bit and byte will do EXACTLY as He has determined from the beginning of physical time. All scripture points to that as fact. I have yet to see anything in the Bible that says otherwise.

    If you for whatever reason do not choose to fulfill your role as a good guy he will find a villians role for you. Your good guy understudy will then take over. You will become a self made resister as the first resister Satan was. God is not making anyone rebel. We choose our course and whatever choice we make God uses it to accomplish his will.

    Jonah didn't want to fulfill his role. Did God give HIM a villains role? NO! He followed that guy down till Jonah finally said, I would rather DIE in the ocean than do what God says. God didn't even let Jonah kill himself to avoid doing what He said. And the BIG LAUGH was on Jonah, when after being punished being in the fish, Jonah said OK OK OK I'll do it. He goes all the way back to Ninevah, and GOD CHANGES HIS MIND. God is not one to be mocked. He will do what HE pleases, and everyone else will be a pawn in His game. Some pawns will die, some pawns will be crowned king. That will be done by God's will alone.

    The second issue is the prophecies concerning lions and wolves living peacefully alongside the sheep and the lambs. JWs have self servingly implied that this is a description of a future earthly paradise that is being held out very literally. It is clear that what was said was metaphors for false shepherds whose animal like natures will change. There is no reason to believe that this is in any way speaking literally.

    I agree with you here.

    We should not expect the natures of wild animals should ever change. Many were designed to eat others and no evil is attached to it. Only to men who choose to act like animals.

    I believe an earth based on death (which the literal earth is) will truly be destroyed and a new earth NOT based on death will be created. All life forms on this new earth will also be NEW. Not RE-newed. BUT NEW. A NEW CREATION.

    Our physical bodies as we know it will be destroyed. Paul insinuates that very fact here, that a body that survives on death, will be destroyed and so will the FOOD (death) that keeps the current body alive:

    1 Cor 6:12-13
    "Food for the stomach and the stomach for food"-but God will destroy them both.

    Food (death of another, to keep another living) is to be destroyed, and so is the body of the one that consumes it.

    New bodies, new concept of how we will survive. God will keep us alive.

    Edited by - pomegranate on 30 October 2002 8:58:17

  • LucidSky
    LucidSky
    The WHOLE biological entity of the earth is good and bad. Who made the tree of good and bad in Eden? God.
    Here's the bottom line, God can call something bad GOOD if He wants, and you have no say in it.

    Pom: God can call suffering and death "good" but unless God's a sadist, I can't see how that is. To intentionally create conscious beings in this manner shows that God is not the God of ultimate love and ultimate justice. God (a moral being) has inflicted harm on innocents (amoral beings) and for what? A photo-drama of creation for the spirit world? It doesn't add up.

  • pomegranate
    pomegranate

    Death = Sleep.

    To God, it's no big deal, he can undo it. To you, it's the end of the world, because there's not a thing you can do to prevent it.

    Jesus Christ experienced it too. If a piece of God can go down and bear it, so can I. If that be God's will.

    So...there it is.

  • Crazy151drinker
    Crazy151drinker

    Prom,

    So let me get this straight. Your saying that God wasnt omnipresent, but after Satan was a bad boy he decided "Hey, I better be more carefull next time. From now on I will know everything." ????? God has the POWER to create EVERYTHING but you think Satan, an Angel who has to change into a snake just to fool some 'lowly' humans, is somehow a threat????

    What is your stance on Dinosaurs?

    Also, if God is all knowing or became all knowing after Satan, then he already knows before you are born if you are going to be saved or not. So whats the point? There really is no freedom of choice. What scripture made you think that God wasnt all-knowing before Satan's rebellion? Because it wouldnt make sense?? "Why would God allow Satan to rebel and allow sin..etc...etc...etc...." I have the answer- He was bored.

    Satan as we understand him is nothing more than some lying jealous angel. Thats it. God would have no reason to fear him. I fail to see the logic in your beliefs. But thats ok! There YOUR beliefs :)

  • rem
    rem

    Interesting theory, but it's kinda ridiculous when you think about it this way:

    If god's spiritual realm was already in disorder because of Satan, then what was the purpose of creating a physical world. Just so more creatures could suffer? If there are no physical beings to begin with, then there is no need for an object lesson. An intelligent creator would have fixed his mess up in heaven before causing more trouble. The creator promoted by Pomegranate and the Bible is pretty irresponsible and stupid.

    rem

  • pomegranate
    pomegranate
    So let me get this straight. Your saying that God wasnt omnipresent, but after Satan was a bad boy he decided "Hey, I better be more carefull next time. From now on I will know everything." ????? God has the POWER to create EVERYTHING but you think Satan, an Angel who has to change into a snake just to fool some 'lowly' humans, is somehow a threat????

    Before rebellion no omniscience, God TRUSTED all his creation. After omniscience, God trusted NOTHING except his other half, his Son. You see, another thing about omniscience, is it overrules all trust. We can put our trust in Him, but he retracted putting trust in creation once Satan VILOLATED that trust.

    What is your stance on Dinosaurs?

    They existed, were meat eaters (created that way) and personally, I believe they were destroyed and fossilized before Adam and Eve were brought into existance.

    Also, if God is all knowing or became all knowing after Satan, then he already knows before you are born if you are going to be saved or not.

    You are exactly right.

    So whats the point?

    He does what He wants according to His good will and pleasure and picks and chooses those He decides to exist with him. Nobody can tell Him what to do. Nobody can defy HIS Sovereignty, He will become as before, all things to all creation and all creation will become subject to Him. Then, he turns off omniscience and trusts all creation again. Wisdom and Justice go in the hopper too, because there will no longer be any lawbreakers. There won't even be any law. There will only be life. The good life.

    There really is no freedom of choice.

    When it comes to God and us, there is only free time.

    What scripture made you think that God wasnt all-knowing before Satan's rebellion?

    1 John 1:5
    This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.If God was all knowing BEFORE Satan (evil) existed, that means God fore-knew the Darkness (evil) in his own consciousness, it was IN HIM. Then, He would have brought that very EVIL into existance by letting it out of him, by giving life to that which he already knew to be evil that was inside him as a fore-thought.

    Satan as we understand him is nothing more than some lying jealous angel. Thats it. God would have no reason to fear him. I fail to see the logic in your beliefs. But thats ok! There YOUR beliefs :)
    Not fear him, fear for the others Satan would infect. Satan was like leaven in heaven.
  • pomegranate
    pomegranate
    If god's spiritual realm was already in disorder because of Satan, then what was the purpose of creating a physical world.

    To create Law and so Christ could die.

    Just so more creatures could suffer?

    Actually, to eventually make all suffering end.

    If there are no physical beings to begin with, then there is no need for an object lesson.

    Who's taking about an object lesson? I'm talking about riding heaven of the leaven.

    An intelligent creator would have fixed his mess up in heaven before causing more trouble.

    It wasn't His mess. Satan's mess, God's fix. God's fix puts all creation in "limbo" while He deals with the problem ON HIS TERMS.

    The creator promoted by Pomegranate and the Bible is pretty irresponsible and stupid.
    Time will tell. I hope you don't have to eat your words.
  • rem
    rem

    Pom,

    The purpose of creating the imperfect physical world was to create Law so Christ could die? Talk about an ad hoc hypothesis with no evidence, rhyme, or reason. Why does god have to create a physical world to take care of his heavenly problems? This is a ridiculous theory. God, if he was truly god(TM), would be able to cleanse his spiritual heavens without creating a physical world. Zap, Satan and his minions are gone, heaven is all perfect again. You are proposing an impotent, sloppy god. If I were a believer, I'd hope that YOU don't have to eat your words some day. If I were god, I'd be pretty pissed at your assessment of myself.

    According to your description of god's ways, he is so incompetent that I'm not sure how you can even be sure that his creating this physical world will even solve the problem of suffering. How do you know that after this whole crappy test is done that god will accomplish his goal of cleaning heaven and earth of satan. So far, Satan seems to be more powerful than god, according to your theory. Will yet another physical world need to be created to get rid of all of the other Satan followers that are created in this world?

    It doesn't sound like this is god's fix on his terms at all. He has to bend over backwards to try and get Satan out of his domain. Looks like Satan has the power here. You've successfully castrated god with your hypothesis.

    rem

  • pomegranate
    pomegranate
    The purpose of creating the imperfect physical world was to create Law so Christ could die? Talk about an ad hoc hypothesis with no evidence, rhyme, or reason. Why does god have to create a physical world to take care of his heavenly problems? This is a ridiculous theory. God, if he was truly god(TM), would be able to cleanse his spiritual heavens without creating a physical world. Zap, Satan and his minions are gone, heaven is all perfect again. You are proposing an impotent, sloppy god. If I were a believer, I'd hope that YOU don't have to eat your words some day. If I were god, I'd be pretty pissed at your assessment of myself.

    God is Just, Justice means Law, and if there was no Law before Satan then Law had to be made. For what JUST reason could God just ZAP Satan if there was no Law against his defiance? NONE God doesn't have JUST reason if there is NO LAW upon which to exercise justice. JUSTICE, ALL JUSTICE cannot exist WITHOUT LAW.

    With Adam and Eve, they HAD LAW. They disobeyed the Law, and payed the JUST price. You're NOT God, nor do you have even the slightest hint at what JUSTICE is bound by. Without LAW there is NO JUSTICE.

    According to your description of god's ways, he is so incompetent that I'm not sure how you can even be sure that his creating this physical world will even solve the problem of suffering.

    The ancient Israelites had your same attitude. Always complaining how God works out His plan and purpose, that would save their very lives.

    How do you know that after this whole crappy test is done that god will accomplish his goal of cleaning heaven and earth of satan.

    God does not lie.

    So far, Satan seems to be more powerful than god, according to your theory.

    Time will tell eh?

    Will yet another physical world need to be created to get rid of all of the other Satan followers that are created in this world?

    They all go in the same dumpster

    It doesn't sound like this is god's fix on his terms at all.

    How would you know? You don't even understand SIMPLE JUSTICE.

    He has to bend over backwards to try and get Satan out of his domain.

    No, He has to create Law, so Satan will break it, so God can then put him away JUSTIFIABLY.

    Looks like Satan has the power here.

    I never said he didn't have power. But not enough

    You've successfully castrated god with your hypothesis.

    No, you've shown you don't even understand what SIMPLE JUSTICE is all about. Without LAW there is NONE. WITH NONE Satan couldn't be dealt with right away.

    Edited by - pomegranate on 31 October 2002 6:25:10

  • rem
    rem

    On what basis do you say there was now law in heaven before the physical world was created? And how, exactly, does creating a physical world create law?

    Even if it were true that there was no law in heaven before creation of the physical world, all that shows is that god is incompetent, irresponsible, and shortsighted.

    You take Pascal's Wager to new heights, my friend. You lose no matter what because not only are you possibly angering another god or gods that you are not worshipping, you are also calling the god you do worship an incompetent dunce. Good luck! lol

    rem

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