Can any believer answer this?

by LucidSky 116 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  SusanHere

  Hi, all! Cool thread.

  Why assume the animals ate other animals at all? Speaking of the Garden of Eden, that is.

  If we are promised the animals will one day stop eating each other, and yet will remain recognizable in their animal forms (i.e. lion and lamb, etc.), they why isn't it more than a little reasonable that in the Garden they didn't eat each other?

  Also, where is the Biblical proof that anything DIED in the Garden? Why is it in any way logical to believe that they did? If things were good, and it was prior to the Fall, isn't it more reasonable to assume that all things thrived, were healthy, and the deteriorations of illness and old age didn't exist? After all, isn't that what we are promised things will return to eventually?

  Since animals killing other animals, and animals dying of old age or whatever cause are not Biblical, then why choose to believe it?

  Just some thoughts. As always, I value your opinions.

  Susan
• 

  UnDisfellowshipped

  Good Thread.

  I really don't know why animals eat other animals.

  I don't know why there are mosquitos, leaches, ticks, parasites etc.

  God created them for a purpose, and they are (or at least were) GOOD to Him.

  I also don't know whether or not animals ate other animals before the Fall of Adam.

  I do agree with Pomegranate, I believe Satan had already rebelled before the Earth was created.
• 

  pomegranate

  I must say, and please please don't take offense to this because as strange as it may seem, I mean this as a compliment, but your last few words about the smartest thing I've heard you say these last fews days. If I believed in the Bible, I might just believe what you said. I mean, it explains WHY God created us and why he didn't just kill Satan in the beginning. Ya know, you could probably start a reliigon with this idea. I've never heard anything quite like it. Unfortunately, a person would already have to believe in the Bible already for it to have an affect. . .

  Thanks for the double sided compliment. I only read the Good side.
  
  I believe we are spirit beings put in "tents"...temporary vessels for GOOD reason even though our bodies are BORN bad.

  I have NO interest in starting a religion...but I sincerely believe my beliefs are LOGICAL, which is what my God given brain cried out for. Maybe I got what I was crying for...

  Let me show you something else...Romans was a book that discussed Law alot. Both the Mosaic Law and law in general...I want you to read a few passages with the understanding of Law the way I have now presented it to you.

  Rom 4:13-15
  13 It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14 For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15 because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

  The emboldened is a very important truth.
  
  Before Satan rebelled, there was NO LAW IN HEAVEN, because no one had gone against God before. It was unheard of by creation, and most of all, God could not even comprehend it coming to be. So, if the was no defined law in heaven regarding even simple disobedience, then there was no defined transgression, because the transgression that Satan began and created was not defined as BAD. So, Satan could continue on his evil quest, and LEGALLY, since God is now Just, God COULD NOT act immediately. So, Satan would have thought he had God over a barrel. No one out thinks God.

  Reason on this, if there was NEVER EVER a murder, would there be a Law against it? No. Because murder does not exist. If Murder does NOT exist, then there would NOT be a law against it. Law isn't made until AFTER the crime is committed. Now, if you go back to Genesis, what does God give Adam and Eve here:

  Gen 2:15-17
  16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

  Basically, "OBEY ME OR DIE."

  You are looking at the very FIRST LAW that God ever gave in creation. Now, if God gave Adam and Eve a LAW against DISOBEDIENCE, then that means disobedience was ALREADY HAPPENING somewhere. God would NOT make a LAW against something that did not exist. If there was a Law against disobedience, then disobedience existed BEFORE Adam and Eve disobeyed God's first Law. Since THEY disobeyed the first Law with an attached punishment, THEY suffered the consequences of death.

  If you go back to that scripture in Romans again, there is another tell tale phrase: because law brings wrath.

  Law brings wrath. The law in Genesis surely brought wrath, which is EXACTLY why God made it, so He could excerise his wrath against the BAD that was corrupting and defiling creation. That was going to STOP with Adam and Eve. Satan wasn't going to stop God from creating newe life though. It's just that the new life that came to be through Adam and Eve came out of the womb ALREADY CORRUPTED. Satan can't corrupt that which is already spoiled. God was BOXING in the serpant. Stop the corruption in heaven, stop the new corruption with ALL of the new life that was to come to be. Satan could no longer corrupt, because God seperated the heavens, and he created man to come out bad from birth. Satan was stopped form corrupting anew.

  God knew Adam and Eve were going down by Satan...He KNEW IT, before they went down. But, God can undo all the bad that has come directly from the Great Cause and Adversary Satan the Devil. In time it will come to be. My guts are in motion...

  There is more...each piece that I have I believe is a logical puzzle...piece by piece...first the frame, then fill out the middle.
• 

  pomegranate

  If we are promised the animals will one day stop eating each other, and yet will remain recognizable in their animal forms (i.e. lion and lamb, etc.), they why isn't it more than a little reasonable that in the Garden they didn't eat each other?

  Well. let's consider this passage:

  Gen 3:1
  Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made.

  First off God MADE WILD ANIMALS.

  This is a metaphorical description of Satan the Devil using a snake as the simile. Notice it says the serpent was CRAFTY, more crafty than others? Well, in real life, what makes a real serpant CRAFTY? He slithers and sneaks up on his prey and NAILS them from behind. Please also note the phrase WILD ANIMALS. What makes ANY animal WILD? They BITE. They KILL. They shred their food to pieces...this mention of WILD ANIMALS was BEFORE Adam and Eve had done ANYTHING wrong...and it says GOD MADE THEM WILD.

  There's something else. If the serpent is metaphor for Satan, then the WILD ANIMALS is certainly metaphor for his comrades, the demons. The Serpent and Wild Animals, in image and likeness of Satan and his buddies.

  God created living things that annoy us...God was in an environment where living things were annoying him.

  What Satan the Devil has caused to become, the God of the living can make undone...so, to me...I can endure and persevere. I now feel I know why everything is as it is...
• 

  ARoarer

  I would think animals insure the continuing of the life cycle of the earth, to keep ecological balance. It seems like a cruel way, and I hate to watch weak sick animals get eaten when watching shows like the Discovery Channel and other shows on Nature. I guess even dinosaurs served a purpose in the engine of the earth as far as obtaining energy from the depths of the earth. This morning while I was having my morning coffee, I held my little aging dog on my lap and wondered why he must suffer from painful arthritis, disease and ultimately death. My heart ached for him and felt so saddened that he will not be with us much longer and wondered why he must suffer for the same things we supposedly suffer from because of "sin". It doesn't seem fair. Just my thoughts
• 

  gumby

  UD,

  I also don't know whether or not animals ate other animals before the Fall of Adam.

  You don't know? Have you heard of Dinosaurs? Have you heard of the T-Rex? Science has more to say about this particular subject than does the Bible. Perhaps you should look there. Type in "Dinosaurs" in your browser and read about how many of these creatures were meat eaters. They were before man....so yes...God made animals to terrify and rip other animals apart.....or did he?
• 

  LucidSky

  Pom: Excellent explanation -- best I've ever heard in fact. Is this the sequence as you understand it:

  1) God creates spirit world.
  2) Spirit world rebels.
  3) God creates physical world.
  4) Spirit world introduces sin into physical world.

  Did Satan corrupt God's creation before A&E or did God make it that way?
• 

  LucidSky

  ARoarer - I know what you mean. It doesn't seem fair for animals that supposedly were not given any moral sense to be subjected to suffering and death -- and this would have been before "sin".
• 

  pomegranate

  Did Satan corrupt God's creation before A&E or did God make it that way?

  Excellent question...

  I believe Satan was defiling heaven, well before Adam and Eve by spreading the corruption of defiance to angels that would come in contact with Satan. I want to show you something else now...

  God began SEGREGATING the defiled from the undefiled in heaven. As Satanic corruption was CONTAGIOUS like a disease/plague, God had to stop the Satanic Plague from defiling ALL of his heavenly Sons. Look differently now at this text:

  Gen 1:3-5
  And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night."
  
  This event above is BEFORE any physical light was created. Physical light was NOT created until day FOUR. So,the questions is, WHAT IS THIS "LIGHT." Well, I say there is two kinds of LIGHT, physical and spiritual. The LIGHT that was shown was NOT physical LIGHT it was spiritual LIGHT. It was a spirtual HAPPENING that caused a heavenly DIVISION / SEPERATION / SEGREATION from the LIGHT (God and Good Sons who were not infected) and the DARKNESS (Satan and his brood of infected FREEWILLERS.)

  With ANY disease or SICKNESS you QUARATINE the disease so it DOES NOT SPREAD further. What you are witnessing in Genesis 1:3-5, is God PROTECTING his own by a divisional factor, a spiritual QUARANTINING of sorts.

  The LIGHT of Genesis 1:3 can be further defined, and you will see more of this interesting puzzle I have been able to put together.

  Edited by - pomegranate on 28 October 2002 10:55:6
• 

  pomegranate

  I held my little aging dog on my lap and wondered why he must suffer from painful arthritis, disease and ultimately death. My heart ached for him and felt so saddened that he will not be with us much longer and wondered why he must suffer for the same things we supposedly suffer from because of "sin". It doesn't seem fair.

  Your thoughts are valid as gold, and I believe your thoughts imitate God's feelings exactly. Death is NOT GOOD, even to the God that can undo it. He too feels the BAD in the death of each of his OWN DOMESTIC animals that falls unwillingly asleep into it...

  No, it isn't fair...and it won't last forever.