Can any believer answer this?

by LucidSky 116 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

rem

Pomegranate,
Well Mr. Teacher of the Law why don't you reprove me? Show me where I am mistaken and need adjusting.
If you look at the greek, the word law is used in a couple of different ways in the NT. Without the definite article ("the" or "ho" in greek) preceding the word law "no'mos", law in general is usually being referred to. If the definite article is used "ho no'mos", then the Mosaic law or some specific law is being referenced. Some bible translations will capitalize the word "Law" when it is used this way. In either case the context of the scripture is important. You cannot just use the word "law" to mean whatever you want to fit your theory. Context is the key.
I had to research this topic when I was putting apostate material in my public talk. The reference is from a Watchtower publication which is quoting a bible translation guide, so I'm not sure if you will accept it, but it seems to make sense to me. Here is the source from the NWT footnote at Romans 3:19: The BibleTranslator, Vol. 1, January 1950, published by The United Bible Societies, London, p. 165, J. Harold Greenlee:
The word law requires individual attention. The [Greek] article indicates a particular law, or the Mosaic law; without the article, reference may be to law as a principle.
There is also another reference to this in Commentary on James, another WT publication. Page 162 has this paragraph:
speaks against law and judges law
James states that such unjust, harsh and unkind criticism of ones Christian brother amounts to a speaking against law and a judging of it. Earlier in his letter James refers to the kingly law of loving ones neighbor and of the law of a free people. (Jas. 2:8, 12) So it appears that, in the section under consideration, James is not referring to the Mosaic law but to Gods law generally as it applied to the Christian congregation. As scholar Lenski points out, the word law in Greek is here anarthrous, that is, without the definite article the, and this lends support to the view that James is not referring specifically to the Mosaic law (the law). It may be noted, however, that the kingly law of loving ones neighbor was also implicit in the Law covenant. Jesus in fact said that the whole Law (given through Moses to Israel) rested on but two commandments, love of God and love of ones neighbor. (Compare Leviticus 19:18; Matthew 22:37-40; Romans 13:8-10.) Similarly, the new commandment given by Jesus also places its emphasis on such love. (John 13:34; 15:12) All the inspired Christian writings maintain that emphasis.
(Note: I had to use WT material for this research so I wouldn't get in trouble with the elders. I can't remember if I found anything from outside sources and just didn't use them since I found the WT references after a lot of scouring.)
If you could find a way to show that your theory is falsifiable, then it might be worth something.

What the heck is that supposed to mean?
It means that there is no sense in me continuing the discussion with you because your theory is not falsifiable. That is, there is no way to disprove it. A theory that is not falsifiable is worthless. No matter what I say, you can just make up and ad hoc answer to it without any evidence. Tell me, is there any way to show that your theory is incorrect?
rem
Edited by - rem on 31 October 2002 18:21:15
gumby

Pomy Pomy Pomy!
Why you dirty devil you! You are having more fun by getting to use your ideas on Bible interpretation. You feel you can back anything anyone has to bring against you cuz....you got an idea on the matter that will overide anyone and that makes you feel like a king eh?
How many people Agree with all your ideas would you say? How about all the screwed up one who are off base from you?
Don't ya thing if God really inspired this book...there wouldn't be so many screwed up people like us guys who can't swallow your idea's? I mean....there are some here as sharp as you and they just don't see it your way. Why? Could'nt the lord have done a better job so we could all think alike.
I mean you could have 50 people read a novel by an un-inspired old lady.....then ask them all questions about the book ....get some disagrements.....do some re-serch and get the story right...and in 3 or 4 easy sessions you could get all to agree on SPECIFIC matters in that book. Frickin man has had 2000 years to disect this book called THE BIBLE and millions of people all have different ideas on what the book means. Can't a book by God be as specific as the little old lady's un-inspired novel....See a problem??????????
pomegranate

I guess what it comes down to prom is this: God is now (in my opinion always has been) all knowing.

If he was all knowing BEFORE SATAN, then God is WORSE than Satan. I would wholey denounce a God who is blaming Satan for His very own evil, because THAT God would be the father of the lie and not Satan.
As such, he knew that adam+eve would sin, that death would be the punishment, everyones sins- EVERYTHING. He knows since day 1 that Jesus is going to die, etc...etc...etc..etc...
Yes.
So whats the point.
You want to hear the simple answer? This is way God had to get rid of Satan JUSTIFIABLY. It is the ONLY way it could be done. That's what the WHOLE deal is. There is NO OTHER thing on God's agenda more important, than eliminating HIM.
To get rid of HIM was a complex situation. It was as complex as the creation around us...PROOF? He didn't eliminate him right away. WHY? Because He couldn't? Why? Because God became the epitome of Justice, and justice doesn't exist WITHOUT LAW. And Justice dosn't punish unless there was Law stating the WRONG and the punishment OK so How? By creating Law. How? By making a plan. What plan? A tool. What Tool? Law. What Law? Christ. How so? He would seperate from God, and write the Law, then reduce himself to living the law, and then die for it. Why? To get rid of Satan, it had to be by JUSTICE, in order for that Just God to execute JUDGMENT, which will be death on a FALSE GOD...and on it goes. There's the simple answer, then there's the answer for those that LOVE the deep things of God. Getting rid of Satan is simple (execute himm) and DEEP (Law is COMPLEX...have you studied the MOSAIC LAW's COMLEXITIES?), but the reality is, God could do NOTHING to Satan without him breaking a Law that warranted the death penalty.
Let me tell you something about LAW. IT IS BAD. Go ask the Israelites. Law is IMPOSSIBLE to keep. WHY? Because LAWS KEEP GROWING BIGGER...and bigger..and bigger...Good people don't NEED LAW on them. BAD PEOPLE need LAW on them...and while BAD people exist GOOD people need LAW to to deter the Bad...But Law goes deeper than that...because we ALL are Law breakers...But...a merciful judge is where the key comes in...and the key will used on those ones whom GOD DECIDES to unlock from the prison of inherited BAD.
The WHOLE Bible is BENT on LAW, because LAW IS BENT. God's Law is BENT in the RIGHT direction. It is the EXACT tool for the job.
All he had to do was either A: Kick Satans ass
For what? God never defined what Satan could or could not do, God never punished anyone before...obviously, there was no Law regarding screwing up, so...no Law, no ass kicking. So, He MAKES LAW.
B: Have the Tree of Life closed for the day. God knowingly allowed all of these things to happen, he has allowed death and sin and pain!! So whats the point??
Rom 11:32
For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Did you read the above? GOD BOUND US INTO SIN PURPOSELY, Why? "...so that he may have mercy on them all."
Because we are bound to sin, we have the hope of God's mercy. Satan does NOT, because HE HAS NO EXCUSE. WE DO. We were BORN that way. And, if God chooses to let the value of his Sons sacrifice be used in our favor, then God's will be done to whomever he chooses to be granted such. Being encased in this piece of sh_t body, actually has an advantage. So does dying in this world. So does all the pain and suffering we ALL go through, some maybe more than others. the end result is BEYOND any man's wildest dreams.
All that Satan has done, will become undone by God.
To test us???
We passed the test. We failed. Exactly as he planned.
Obviously that cant be it because He already knows what we are going to do.
You are correct sir.
Its not a test if you know the outcome. So the whole concept is pointless unless He ENJOYS all of this madness. He is having fun!!! Im not doubting his love, just accepting the fact that we are just one big ant farm........
The WHOLE POINT is to get rid of Satan the Devil LEGALLY, JUSTIFIABLY by the LETTER of the LAW.
The simple answer: God wants Satan DEAD... God's will be done. Soon.
gumby

Poms typin a bunch of stuff for me right now but I'm gonna beat him
Crazy151drinker

Prom,
I hope we are talking about the same God here. The God that I have read about seems to enjoy BBQing people and turning them into to salt in a moments notice. Now granted, he chilled out when he sent Christ but the Old Testament is filled with God not being very lovey dovey!
One would tend to think that he would have BBQ'd Satan years ago! How many LAWS has Satan broke?? How many commandments??? God could BBQ him anyday of the week!! So the whole LAW excuse just doesnt add up. Its as if youre suggesting that Satan hasnt reached his 1,000,000 ticket yet so God hasnt punished him. Lets say that God had to wait until Satan broke a LAW. Fine, we get laws with Moses. Are you saying that Satan hasnt broken any laws since then???? Come on prom!
pomegranate

If you look at the greek, the word law is used in a couple of different ways in the NT. Without the definite article ("the" or "ho" in greek) preceding the word law "no'mos", law in general is usually being referred to. If the definite article is used "ho no'mos", then the Mosaic law or some specific law is being referenced. Some bible translations will capitalize the word "Law" when it is used this way. In either case the context of the scripture is important. You cannot just use the word "law" to mean whatever you want to fit your theory. Context is the key

First rem my friend, make sure you don't CONFUSE context WITH GRAMMAR. You have just spit out grammar (incorrectly too), and called it context. OK? (Greek grammar happens to be one of the most difficult to master. Have you mastered it?? Ahhh. I can say you haven't)
CONTEXT is it ALL: Shall we look at the context? Sure!!
Rom 5:12-17
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man [ADAM's sin],
The CONTEXT for the beginning of this paragraph is ADAM and his SIN.
and death through sin , [ADAM's SIN]
The CONTEXT is still about ADAM and his SIN being the cause for DEATH
and in this way death came to all men,
The CONTEXT is STILL talking about ADAM and his SIN and the way DEATH came to all men.
because all sinned-
The context is STILL about ADAM and his sin making us ALL sinners by inheritance.
13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world.
Let's do a context check on the verse 13 shall we? First, verse 13 is last HALF of the SENTENCE for verse 12. Anyone knowing basic CONTEXTUAL analysis KNOWS that a sentence DOES NOT change it's context in the middle of it. No. It maintains it's context. So, what is the context of verse 12? ADAM and his SIN and the way it came to us. So, the context will follow into verse thirteen, which is the last half of the sentence for verse 12, which context is talking about ADAM and his SIN and death and the way it came to us. The ONLY law that verse 13 can be referencing, is the Law of the Tree, do not eat. That is the context, ADAM his SIN that brought DEATH by breaking THE LAW of do not eat. The Law being refernced by Paul is DO NOT EAT, which is the Law that Adam broke, which caused sin to enter the world of mankind, by God's design of trait inheritance.
Before that Law was given, SIN WAS IN THE WORLD and that sin being non other thatn Satan the Devil.
Rom 5:13
But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.
So, when was there a time that sin was NOT taken into account because there was no Law? Why would Paul make such a reference if there NEVER was a time such as NO LAW?
Simple. That time was when Satan sinned. No Law. His sin could NOT be immediately accounted for.
Paul says it TWICE to make it QUITE clear:
Rom 4:15
and where there is no law there is no transgression.
TECHNICALLY, Satan wasn't transgressing because there was no Law. No Law, no transgression, no punishment.
Simple.
pomegranate

Why you dirty devil you! You are having more fun by getting to use your ideas on Bible interpretation. You feel you can back anything anyone has to bring against you cuz....you got an idea on the matter that will overide anyone and that makes you feel like a king eh?

First, I don't interpret the Bible, I understand the Bible. An interpretation is NEVER wrong, because interpretations come form God. Understanding also comes from God, but there is always the corrupting element trying to stick in his "understanding" too, to corrupt that which God gives. Your other half of the above seems more emotional than logical, so I don't have an answer for you.
How many people Agree with all your ideas would you say? How about all the screwed up one who are off base from you?
How many people agree with me is moot. What difference does it make? Large numbers of people agreeing with each other gives you things like the Catholic church and the JW's.
Don't ya thing if God really inspired this book...there wouldn't be so many screwed up people like us guys who can't swallow your idea's?
Have you read the Bible about what's true? Not many swallow it. The real truth is bitter/sweet.
I mean....there are some here as sharp as you and they just don't see it your way. Why? Could'nt the lord have done a better job so we could all think alike.
Well...why didn't the scribes and Pharisees accept Jesus? They were "sharp" too. Teachers of the Law even...The Jews were saying the same thing...couldn't God have done a better job? I mean, this wimpy man?
Can't a book by God be as specific as the little old lady's un-inspired novel....See a problem??????????
No and No.
pomegranate

I hope we are talking about the same God here. The God that I have read about seems to enjoy BBQing people and turning them into to salt in a moments notice.

God doesn't "enjoy" punishment. Show me where he seems to enjoy it.
Now granted, he chilled out when he sent Christ but the Old Testament is filled with God not being very lovey dovey!
Jesus of the New T is the
One would tend to think that he would have BBQ'd Satan years ago! How many LAWS has Satan broke??
Satan didn't break the Law til Christ was crucified.
How many commandments???
None til the death and resurrection of Christ
God could BBQ him anyday of the week!!
Actually, after the death and resurrection, he surely could. The judgment of condemnation has been made, now it's just await the execution of judgment.
So the whole LAW excuse just doesnt add up.
To someone who does not understand Law it wouldn't.
Its as if youre suggesting that Satan hasnt reached his 1,000,000 ticket yet so God hasnt punished him.
He had to be guilty of a life equal to the one HE CLAIMED he had. God.
Lets say that God had to wait until Satan broke a LAW. Fine, we get laws with Moses. Are you saying that Satan hasnt broken any laws since then???? Come on prom!
I'm not sure whether I am dealing with someone that is ignorant or stupid.
Here was the Law that Satan had to break and the penalty of that violation of the particular Law that would condemn him.
Do not murder. He did with Christ.
Life for Life. Jesus, True God When in Heaven/ Satan False God in heaven. Scale of JUSTICE is balanced.
Crazy151drinker

Prom,
That is nonsense. You suggest that Im ignorant yet you are trying to say that God cannot kill Satan until the end of days. Please. God can do whatever, whenever, to whomever he pleases. Dont try to limit his power with your foolish theories...
Crazy151drinker

And how is Satan guilty of Christ's murder??? Its impossible, and if you want to get technical, God knew that Jesus would get killed and set the whole thing up so either God is an Accomplice (since he did nothing to stop it and he could have) or its entrapment. Your arguments are Nonsense.

Can any believer answer this?

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