Posts by leaving

109

Topics Ive Been Pondering On

by JWINQUESTION in

this is my first post on here so bear with me.

currently i am still an active jw with serious questions about the jw org.

i was hesitant signing up but really need as much input from the people on this forum to get a clear understanding on things.

Welcome to the board. First, your questions and comments are not at all bad. I feel pretty much the same way. The problem, for me, is in the doctrines. Specifically, claiming to speak for God and being so dogmatic about their teachings and practices to the point that if we don't fall in line, we are expelled from the organization and our families cannot speak to us.

I am still an active, in good standing JW. But I have found many doctrines and practices to be unscriptural. The WT study this past weekend that said that we must reject unscriptural teachings, regardless of the source, weighs on me heavily.

Does WTBTS teach things that are unscriptural? A deeper study into doctrines unique to JWs shows that, yes, some are. For example, please find for me ANY scripture that teachings that only 144,000 go to heaven. If you can find it, then I'll deem it scriptural. If you cannot, then it is unscriptural, right?

Anyway, welcome again. Best wishes on your journey, whereever it may lead.

~LQ

18

July WT Study magazine - How can any intelligent person believe these things??

by Faithful Witness in

i haven't been paying attention, i admit... but thought i would go and look at their latest magazine, and see what my parents are spending their precious energy on this month.

my mom retired in may, and we have seen her just once since then.

our invitations have been rejected, due to meetings, conventions, service work requirements, etc.

leaving_quietly

Paragraph 15 on page 32: "Thus, being hated for bearing Jehovah's name is the same as 'being reproached for the name of [Jesus] Christ,' who said to his opposers: 'I have come in the name of my Father, but you do not receive me.' (John 5:43)

This actually bears looking at closer, both paragraphs 14 and 15.

Par 14:

Today, millions may claim to be Christians, "but they disown [God] by their works, because they are detestable and disobedient and not approved for good work of any sort." (Titus 1:16) It is good for us to remember that in the first century, genuine Christians were hated by many--if not the majority--of their contemporaries. That is why the apostle Peter wrote: "If you are being reproached for the name of Christ, you are happy, because . . . the spirit of God . . . is resting upon you."--1 Pet 4:14.

Comments: Why leave a part of 1 Pet 4:14? In it's entirety, it reads:

If you are being reproached for the name of Christ, you are happy, because the spirit of glory, yes, the spirit of God, is resting upon you.

Is there something about this WTBTS is ashamed of???

Par 15:

Can those inspired words be applied to Jehovah's Witnesses today? Yes, indeed, because we bear witness to Jesus' kingship. Thus, being hated for bearing Jehovah's name is the same as "being reproached for the name of [Jesus] Christ," who said to his opposers: "I have come inthe name of my Father, but you do not receive me." (John 5:43) So the next time you experience opposition in your witnessing work, take courage. Such mistreatment is proof that you have God's smile of approval and that his spirit "is resting upon you."

Comments: What is this bait and switch? "bearing witness to Jesus' kingship" is not the same as "bearing Jehovah's name". The transition in thought here is just strange.

What about all the other people / groups who bear witness to Jesus' kingship? There are plenty more out there than Jehovah's Witnesses who believe Christ is king. This doesn't make JWs special.

As for bearing witness to Jesus' kingship, this is a red herring. Nowhere in the Bible are we told to bear witness to Jesus' kingship. We are to bear witness about Jesus, but neither the phrase "bear witness" nor "bearing witness" occurs in any verse in connection with his kingship.

As for being hated for bearing Jehovah's name being the same as being reproached for the name of Christ, this is simply a false claim. How is this the same? In this same article, in paragraph 5, they DO make a distinction: "Why did Jesus say: "You will be witnesses of me," not of Jehovah? Jesus could have said the latter, but the ones whom he addressed were Israelites and as such were already witnesses of Jehovah." So, we see that the Israelites already bore Jehovah's name but were NOT reproached for that. They only were reproached when they started bearing Christ's name.

As for experiencing opposition in the witnessing work being proof of God's smile approval, what about others who also witness who experience opposition, such as Mormons or Baptists or other evangelical groups? If it's proof for us then it's proof for them because ALL of those groups claim to come in Christ's name.

42

Today's WT study!. Watch out for the "wicked" in the cong!

by stuckinarut2 in

how strange today's study was!.

warning examples of apostacy, and saying to all witnesses "watch for bad associations in the cong".

talk about paranoia and distrust amongst themselves!.

leaving_quietly

@Bobcat, what you said is exactly why I don't comment anymore.

I wanted to comment on the phrase "renounce unrighteousness" since the Greek word for what the NWT translates as "renounce" is, quite ironically, "Apostētō", which means "let depart", "abstain from", "draw away". This should actually translate to "let him depart from unrightousness" or "let him abstain from unrighteousness".

The word "renounce" is an interesting choice. The primary definition of renounce in English is: " formally declare one's abandonment of". Th

What Paul was actually saying here is: "Apostasize yourself from unrighteousness".

How do you like that? The word "apostacize" can have a GOOD meaning!

Check out the following link for synonyms for "apostacize" and look farther down at the related words. Yep, there's "renounce".

http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/apostacize

63

w14 12/15-E Study Edition

by wifibandit in

click "premium download".

.

pdf: http://bayfiles.net/file/1kv2k/uaqn2y/w_e20141215.pdf.

leaving_quietly

More revisionism in the Insight book. This WT has the article about grasping the meaning and discusses the mustard grain in Matt 13:31,32. It describes the birds. If you look back through the publications, the birds went through a change in meaning from 'enemies of the Kingdom', 'the wicked one' to 'righthearted ones'.

Man's Salvation, 1975 says: "Whom did he explain those “birds” to be like? “The wicked one,” “the Devil.” That is to say, the earthly agents of the wicked Devil."

This remained until 2008, (w08 7/15 p. 18 par. 8): "These birds do not represent enemies of the Kingdom who try to eat up the good seeds, as was true of the birds in the illustration of the man who scattered seed on different kinds of soil. (Mark 4:4) Rather, in this illustration the birds represent righthearted ones who seek protection within the confines of the Christian congregation. Even now, these ones are protected from the spiritually defiling habits and unclean practices of this wicked world."

Interestingly, the Insight book under "Illustrations" on page 1179, says:

The mustard grain was tiny and so it could be used to designate anything extremely small. (Lu 17:6) When fully developed, some mustard plants actually attain a height of 3 to 4.5 m (10 to 15 ft) and have sturdy branches, thus virtually becoming “a tree,” as Jesus said. We are helped to identify the “tree” if we take note of the fact that the series of illustrations in which this one is included was introduced at Matthew 13:13-15 by a statement regarding a negative factor. It should also be noted that in the context “birds” are referred to in a negative sense; they are shown to represent “the wicked one.”—Mt 13:4, 19; Lu 8:12. (WT Library CD 2013 Edition, Insight book, Illustrations, p. 1179)

The Insight book on wol.jw.org changes this:

The mustard grain was tiny and so it could be used to designate anything extremely small. (Lu 17:6) When fully developed, some mustard plants actually attain a height of 3 to 4.5 m (10 to 15 ft) and have sturdy branches, thus virtually becoming “a tree,” as Jesus said. In a comparable way, the Christian congregation started in a very small way on Pentecost 33 C.E. But in the first century, it grew rapidly, and in modern times, the branches of the mustard “tree” have expanded to beyond expectations.—Isa. 60:22. (Watchtower Online, Insight book, Illustrations)

Just thought you'd like to be aware of this. Apparently, they are editing multiple subjects in the Insight book. If you have your hard copies, keep them.

34

The insensitivity and opportunistic nature of witness at the 9/11 site !

by stuckinarut2 in

i saw an online post with pictures of all the witnessing carts all around the 9/11 site during the anniversary of the tragedy.... im appalled at how opportunistic they are, and how they prey on people in a mourning and vulnerable state!.

apparantly they boast of: "there are 65 carts, with 200 witnesses manning the area... and so far 15 new studies started!".

.

leaving_quietly

Let's see: considering that their target audience here are very vulnerable emotionally...

200 people

65 carts

Only 15 studies??? (These can't really be counted as studies until the THIRD study, so I'm thinking they got 15 people to give them their contact info to be called on at a later time. I doubt these are ACTUALLY studies.)

Essentially, only one in 13 of those 200 JWs got someone to give their contact info.

And only 4(ish) visits per cart. (EDIT: probably a lot more visits than this, but only 4 per cart who gave contact info)

While higher than normal results, keep in mind the emotionalism of the event.

32

Need to find those Km or Wt articles encouraging all to read the old publications!

by stuckinarut2 in

i have been dropping comments to a few re some classic old beliefs and teachings etc... and when asked "where did you read that, or how come you are saying such and such?

" i have replied "well, you remember we have often been told to study and research our old 'theocratic history' and 'old gems' of material?....

now though i have been challenged to prove where this has been printed!.

leaving_quietly

@Zoos, I have mentioned this to some and they asked the same thing. I told them that when the WT Library references them, I do a Google Search, and they are often found in the public domain, for example, at the Internet Archive or on Youblisher (which is truthful.) No one really bats an eye at that answer. They're usually like: 'Cool! I didn't know they were out there.'

56

My JW mom is now willing to "listen" to our side...Need advice pls

by 2pink in

jw
friends

my husband and i (both born in jws with extended family all "in" except for one of my sisters who left when we did) left the church 5 years ago.

we did not fade, we just didn't believe it anymore, told our families so and left.

obviously, big drama in our family after this, messy feelings, etc.

leaving_quietly

@DocHouse, I still fail to see your point. I re-read my comments and am confused what you are attempting to address in my comments. I wasn't talking about hellfire, purgatory, etc. I'm sorry, but your points are lost on me because I'm not sure what you are attempting to correct me on.

But, if it makes you feel better, I don't dispute what you say: death is death. I agree with that. If you don't believe in a future resurrection and the ransom of Christ, then that's where we diverge, and if that's the case, so be it.

56

My JW mom is now willing to "listen" to our side...Need advice pls

by 2pink in

jw
friends

my husband and i (both born in jws with extended family all "in" except for one of my sisters who left when we did) left the church 5 years ago.

we did not fade, we just didn't believe it anymore, told our families so and left.

obviously, big drama in our family after this, messy feelings, etc.

leaving_quietly

@DocHouse.... I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. As regards your last statement, John 5:28,20 and Rev 20:12,13 don't align with what you said, so I must respectfully disagree with you. And, yes, I'm very familiar with what the Society teaches about these. I have to go with what the verses actually say instead of what someone interprets them as saying.

56

My JW mom is now willing to "listen" to our side...Need advice pls

by 2pink in

jw
friends

my husband and i (both born in jws with extended family all "in" except for one of my sisters who left when we did) left the church 5 years ago.

we did not fade, we just didn't believe it anymore, told our families so and left.

obviously, big drama in our family after this, messy feelings, etc.

leaving_quietly

IF you can have a conversation about Romans 6, I find that the best line of reasoning is this:

If our sins are acquitted at physical death, then every person, every... single... person..., up to this moment in time that has died is acquitted of their sins. That means that the blood of the Christ has NO EFFECT on ANYONE that has died in the past. Not the apostles. Not the disciples. Not faithful Israelites that died. Not faithful Christians since then, but ONLY operates toward those CURRENTLY living.

Obviously, this makes no sense. It does not square with what Paul wrote eariler in Romans:

God presented him as an offering for propitiation through faith in his blood. This was to demonstrate his own righteousness, because God in his forbearance was forgiving the sins that occurred in the past. - Rom. 3:25

It stands to reason that people who died before Christ came along did NOT have their sins acquitted at death, otherwise, there would be NO NEED for forgiveness of those sins. Thus, the understanding that the Society has CANNOT be correct.

This point was actually driven home to me by a very humble person I met in the field ministry one day. She said, basically, 'If our sins are acquitted at death, then why in the world did Christ die for us to begin with?'

56

My JW mom is now willing to "listen" to our side...Need advice pls

by 2pink in

jw
friends

my husband and i (both born in jws with extended family all "in" except for one of my sisters who left when we did) left the church 5 years ago.

we did not fade, we just didn't believe it anymore, told our families so and left.

obviously, big drama in our family after this, messy feelings, etc.

leaving_quietly

marked.... great responses, Splash!

leaving_quietly

Posts by leaving_quietly