My JW mom is now willing to "listen" to our side...Need advice pls

by 2pink 56 Replies latest jw friends

  • 2pink

    My husband and I (both born in JWs with extended family all "in" except for one of my sisters who left when we did) left the church 5 years ago. We did not fade, we just didn't believe it anymore, told our families so and left. Obviously, big drama in our family after this, messy feelings, etc. We have contact with no one but my parents and that is just minimal contact when they come visit our kids once a year.

    However, due to a recent issue with my sister (the xJW), my Mom is now willing to talk. My sister told her the JWs take scriptures out of context to fit their doctrine. My Mom wants an example of this, which is huge because before she was unwilling to even entertain any discussion on it.

    I've not given a thought to any of this BS for so long that I can't think of any scriptures at all anymore. Can anyone help me out?

    Also, if you can think of any other hard to deny reasoning points to bring out, that could be helpful. Not sure how long she will "listen", so I'm hoping for some concise points that can be made quickly, but will linger in her mind for her to think about after the conversation is over.

    Thanks for any help

  • GrreatTeacher

    The great crowd in revelation stood before the throne, clearly putting then in heaven not on a paradise earth. Don't have chapter and verse.

  • Coded Logic
    Coded Logic

    Just lifted this from CRAM, on rare occasion they do make some good points:

    The 144,000 are mentioned in two chapters in the Bible: Revelation 7 & 14. By looking at the verses it is obvious that the 144,000 are literal Jews of the ancient tribes with no Gentiles among them (7:4-8). They are all males (14:4) and virgins (14:4). If the JW states that the usage of Jewish male virgins is figurative, what gives them the right to state that number of 144,000 is literal?


    “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time?” ( Matthew 24:45 )

    The Watchtower’s interpretation of Matthew 24:45 is extremely problematic. By putting together an array of highly speculative and complex chronological threads, they come to the conclusion that 1914 is the day in which Christ began his rule at the “conclusion of this system of things.” This is contrary to the biblical view that Christ began His rule at His ascension ( Eph. 1:20-22 ). It's also contrary to the fact that the slave class started with Peter when Jesus charged him with feeding his sheep (John 21:15-17).

  • wizzstick

    Could you ask your sister if she can remember what she said?

    GrreatTeacher is right - the GC is a good place to start. JWFacts has a good page on that, including a Jason DeBuhn e-mail:

    If you look up DeBuhn on the WT-CD Rom he is viewed very highly by the WT. So it lends weight to his comments.

    As another poster said: James 1:17 is useful:

    17 Every good gift and every perfect present is from above, coming down from the Father of the celestial lights, who does not vary or change like the shifting shadows.

    Then show her the number of understandings of Generations, or the Faithful and Discrete slave. Why would God do that? If he does not vary or change, why would he teach something false as Truth.

    Take her through Proverbs 4, not just 4:18. What evidence is there that connects 4:18 to our time? None! It's just a poetic passage comparing the path of the righteous one with the path of the unrighteous. There is nothing about new light being shed on Bible understanding.

    Good luck!

  • sloppyjoe2

    A topic you could use is Romans 6:1-7. It is very important to have your parents read each verse one at a time and after explain what is being said. It forces them to acknowledge that this is a spiritual death related to being saved through Jesus ransom sacrifice. JWs take Romans 6:7 out of context and say that someone's physical death acquits them of their sins and allows them to be resurrected. This scripture does not say that at all. This will eventually lead to the scriptures that say there is a resurrection of life and judgement which JWs virtually ignore. This then also will bring up the scroll of life in revelation which JWs say are new scrolls which are really just names of those who are saved.

  • leaving_quietly

    The latest WT has an article (Nov, I think), a conversation with a neighbor, explaining 1914. In it, the JW says Daniel often didn't understand what he was writing and uses a verse from Daniel 12 to prove it. It's out of context because it was a different vision than chapter 4 at a different time of his life. Had nothing to do with the vision in Daniel 4

    This is a recent example for you.

  • DogGone

    I suggest pointing out any particular scripture will not suffice. Your mom will find a WT article which discusses it. It won't matter what it says, the fact that there is a WT answer, no matter how weak, will be taken at face value.

    Therefore, I suggest a direct attack on the monster itself, the notion that Acts 15 supports the notion of a centralized governing body. The narrative the WT presents is that there was this happy little GB sitting around in Jerusalem who governed matters of doctrine and practice. Indeed, if you read Acts you can almost come up with that notion, Acts is such a sanitized, white-washed church history.

    But, we have a completely different picture when we compare what Paul said about that body of old men. In Galatians 1 Paul goes out of his way to point out that he did NOT get his authority from "those who were apostles before I was". In fact, he only met Cephas three years after his Apostleship and did not bother with the others at that time. In fact, he was unknown to those in Judea. This was a GB?

    Note how Paul goes on in Galatians 2 to describe his meetings with these folks in Jersusalem, these important Christians. He is very specific, very deliberate that he did not need, seek, want, recognize, thier endorsement. He was letting THEM know what he was doing, not asking permission. "those highly regarded men imparted nothing new to me. On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the good news." In fact, he talks about how he resisted Cephas later over the matter of the law.

    Galatians, to me, shatters the entire idea of a central governing body in Jerusalem. Paul is saying, rather directly, that the Judean "Christians" were backward and working against Christ in thier adherence to the Law. Acts 15 is not a story of a governing body, but of the Jerusalem congregation coming to terms and accepting the teachings of Paul. It is the settling of a massive dispute between several power bases, not the expression of a single central power base.

    Reading the two accounts side by side shows how the WT twists the story to create a pattern of authority which simply did not exist - the opposite existed.

  • DogGone

    For a much better presentation than I have made:

    Of course, you can always ask her if she really thinks the trumpets of Revelation involve Cedar Point Ohio... But, that is almost too easy. And we made fun of Mormons for underwear...

  • berrygerry

    God CANNOT lie.

    If something is not true, is it not then a lie?

    The changes are endless.

    The 3 that bother me the most are:

    1. The generation of 1914 will not pass away, which I often used as a young pioneer. Ask any JW to define what the generation teaching is now. It's impossible.

    2. The other is Knorr's prediction of the UN (the League) being revived in 1942. This was a revision of the Enemies book (which I have a copy). As well, the UN began its formation in 1940 (check the website) - pretty hard to not predict something coming into existence when it was already in existence.

    (See w 1988/03/01 p 15

    "I found great joy in returning to the many warm brothers at Brooklyn Bethel. I had come in time to attend the history-making convention in Cleveland, Ohio, September 18-20, 1942. There, Brother N. H. Knorr, the Society’s new president, gave the talk “Peace—Can It Last?” This brought new light on Revelation 17:8. It was revealed that the Allied powers would prevail and that a new international “peace beast” would arise. This did occur when, after the war ended in 1945, the United Nations was organized" )

    (See w 1979/07/01 p 7

    "Even before the League reappeared as the United Nations in 1945")

    (See w 1967/02/15 An Abortive Attempt to Establish a New Order)

    (See w 1967/11/15 p 696

    ".On September 18-20, 1942, the New World Theocratic Assembly was held, fifty-one cities being linked with the main assembly city Cleveland, Ohio, and twenty-six foreign cities being favored with the same program. In the public talk, “Peace—Can It Last?” the peace that was to follow World War II in 1945 was foretold, also the reviving of the international organization for world peace and security, now the United Nations. ")

    (See Kingdom Come book, page 166

    "What composite “beast” has appeared in these “last days,” and what has been its performance on the world stage? At an international convention of Jehovah’s Witnesses in 1942, the public talk entitled “Peace—Can It Last?” called attention to the prophecy at Revelation 17:7, 8. The speaker, Watch Tower president N. H. Knorr, identified “the wild beast that . . . was” as the League of Nations—brought forth in 1920. But now, in that wartime year of 1942, he stated: “The League is in effect in a state of suspended animation, and needs to be revived if it is ever to live again. It has gone into the abyss of inaction and ineffectiveness. It ‘is not.’” President Knorr went on to show that “the wild beast that . . . was, but is not, . . . is about to ascend out of the abyss, and it is to go off into destruction.” True to the Bible prophecy, that “beast” was revived in 1945 as the United Nations.")


    "The name "United Nations", coined by United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt was first used in the Declaration by United Nations of 1 January 1942, during the Second World War, when representatives of 26 nations pledged their Governments to continue fighting together against the Axis Powers.")

    3. We know love because our Father is love. What father is going to murder a one-month old baby because of his/her parents' beliefs? What a dishonourable teaching of our Father!

  • disposable hero of hypocrisy
    disposable hero of hypocrisy

    What a thread! Cheers!

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