Posts by Cicatrix

162

If its good, God did it... if its bad Satan did it....

by Elsewhere in

jw
friends

.

i've read the bible and i don't recall satan himself actually ever doing anything evil or harmful... however i read many accounts where god killed or tormented countless thousands of people for arbitrary reasons.. aside from prophecies where jehover says that satan will hurt people in the future (hasn't happened yet, and no sign that it will happen), can anyone cite an example in the bible where satan actually harmed anyone?.

Cicatrix

"God doesn't expect loyalty, He deserves it though. Your ass is His."

This ideology really cancels out "free will." How can you have true free will if you are punished with death/eternal torment/ separation from God's love, or whatever,if you choose a route other than the one God supposedly set forth in the Bible?

Basically, there is no true "free will." You can choose to do everything God requires in acknowledgment that "Your ass is His," or you can die/suffer eternal torment/ be separated from God's love.

So what if you don't want to follow God's rules as set forth in the Bible? Are you suffering the consequences of exercising your right to "free will" or are you being punished?

To punish, as defined by Merriam Webster's Collegiate dictionary is:1.a: to impose a penalty for a fault, offense, or violation (b) to inflict a penalty for the commision of (an offense) in retribution or retaliation 2 a to deal with roughly or harshly (b) to inflict injury on: hurt

punishment is: 1. The act of punishing 2 (a) suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution (b)a penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure 3: severe, rough, or disasterous treatment.

According to the scriptures, people who have purposely chosen not to serve God have suffered consequences (or punishments,depending on your outlook) and also people who have never served the God of the Bible have suffered consequences/punishments.

Genesis 3:16 says "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow ...

The "he" is Jehovah, and "he" said "[I] (emphasis mine) will greatly multiply thy sorrow"

So, to me, this fits the definition of punish because it's imposing a penalty for a violation, and it's a punishment because "greatly multiply[ing] thy sorrow is "suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution" and is a "penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure."

Eve was decieved, and she was punished by pain in childbirth, relationship problems, and by being prevented from eating from the second tree. Adam chose to partake of the fruit of the tree by exercising free will (evidentally, he wasn't deceived, but ate anyway when Eve encouraged him to), and he was punished by having to spend the rest of his life toiling outside the garden (and Eve got a quadruple whammy because she suffered this too), and by being prevented from partaking from the second tree.

Both were prevented from eating of the second tree, about which Genesis 3:22 states "And the LORD GOD said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, [lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23 Therefore the LORD GOD sent him forth from the garden of Eden to till the ground from whence he was taken.](emphasis mine).

Jehovah was the one who prevented the two from partaking of the second tree, which would have imparted eternal life to them. It was a direct intervention, according to the scriptures, NOT the natural outcome of a "consequence."

The same precedence against free will carries over into the NT, if you take it literally. Jesus said "He that is not with me is against me." There really is no neutral position allowed.

Why? Well, because "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand."

Back then, some of the folks were inclined toward worshipping goddesses and gods that were not Jehovah. There is a theme throughout the Bible of prophets and such denouncing this worship and tearing down the altars and sacramental poles and the like, and genocide being committed on nations of "unbelievers". What better way to promote this new faith over existing religions the followers of Jehovah felt were faulty, than to demonize the serpent (a sign of divinity to the worshippers of "foreign gods"), claim the serpent as their own when the first tactic didn't work (the wilderness incidence of the copper colored serpent, and Moses changing the staff into a big serpent that gobbled up the Egyptian priests little serpents) and to subjagate women in general (ever since Eve). And it wasn't just an OT problem. Chapter 17 and 18 of Acts show the rivalry pretty well, too.

26

The Passion of the Christ questions (Spoilers within)

by recoveringjw in

jw
friends

spoilers?

for anybody who knows the story of jesus, it should be like watching titanic---the ship sinks, get over it.

spouse: "nobody in the movie saw the hooded creature.

Cicatrix

"The hooded pale man was really a women, who played satan. That wasn't a maggot, it was the tale of a snake, you'll notice the snake comes out from under his clothes and Jesus stomps it."

And once again, we see the tired old theme of woman as the purveyor of evil, lol.

It's interesting if you study mythology that at one time, snakes were considered divine, as were women. It was only with the advent of the sky god mythology that both became demonised. Literally and figuratively.

17

Got this email out of the blue the other day

by mkr32208 in

jw
friends

mark,.

at one time in my career i was exposed to an apostate tape.

i found it very unsettling and began to wonder about the truth.

Cicatrix

"I no longer believe that this religion is the truth. I am not trying to change your beliefs. You are happy with them and welcome to believe whatever you wish. I choose not to, my reasons are my own, there are many of them not just one."

I told my mother the same thing awhile back. It's an odd situation- as for years SHE tried to convince me that the WTS is a cult.

I DA'd myself (refused to give the elders a reason), and she started up her Bible study shortly thereafter! She told me she just can't learn about the Bible studying it on her own, and that she is mostly doing it because she has become friends with her study conductor over the years and enjoys their weekly visit.

She pressed me for more information as to why I left, but I've continued to refuse to give her any. I told her that if I were to give her any reasons, that I would be living up to the WTS definition of an "apostate," and that if she continued to associate with me afterwards, it would affect her relationship with her congregation and friends-especially since she has told them repeatedly that she will never shun any of her children.

What's really odd is that she questions the beliefs openely when she is with me, yet is so afraid that everything she has learned could be true. She questions me about specific things, and I just tell her to do her own research if she really wants to know.

It's all very frustrating.Sometimes I think she's doing it to manipulate me (there are other nonJW issues involved), yet I also distinctly remember what it felt like to be a "true believer." I know I can't go back though, and I can't pretend just so I can maintain a relationship with her. Being a JW nearly killed me.

If she goes hard line and demands answers to her questions, I will stand my ground. I DA'd with full knowledge that I might someday be shunned by my mother. As painful as it will be if it happens, I won't return to the WTS. I will let her know that my door is always open to her, though.

15

how we get trapped!

by the mole in

my dad and i spoke over lunch the other day about our religion.

he told me that he bumped into two of my cousins who are pioneers at the auburn congregation..he told them he was disapointed and was not invited to their party...after he told me his conversation with them he repeatedly kept on saying "the truth".

i finally corrected him and told him that was one of the ways to suppress him buy using words like that to inflict guilt and that there is no other truth when there is.

Cicatrix

"When you do hear people say it, can't you just kind of hear the capital "T" they use when they say "the Truth"?"

Oh, yes, yes, yes! I even remember vaguely a talk that was given at an assembly about truth with a capital T.

I had issues with the words "the Truth" after I left.I didn't slip into using the the words, I couldn't use the word truth AT ALL, lol. I started going to another church. The reverend, who has some insight into what it's like for people who have left a high control group, gave a really nice sermon, and clarified that at that church, everyone is on their own journey for truth WITH A LITTLE T. It kind of helped me be able to feel a little more comfortable with the word "truth," but if it's used in a religious context, or the words "the" and "Truth" are strung together, I still have a tendency to want to bolt.

I now refer to the organisation as the Watchtower Society, and I always say "they" when I speak of other members. After two years, I don't feel as though I am one of them anymore. Now all I'm dealing with are the strange issues of being an "ex" JW, like not having references to look for a job, and not having anyone to put down as an emergency contact on my kid's emergency cards in school.

19

Behind the yellow smiley face (Wal-mart)

by Sadie5 in

jw
friends

it's been a year since i started my job at wal-mart.

it has been an eye opening experience how they treat their workers.. here is one the ways they cut costs.

i was hired as a sales clerks which is the lowest paid position.

Cicatrix

I have a relative and a friend who both used to work at WalMart, so I've been aware of this issue for a couple of years.

I don't shop a whole lot at WalMart. We get our groceries from a store called "Aldi". Most of the stuff is store brand, and you have to bag your own groceries, but they cost about half what stuff at WalMart costs, their cashiers make $10 per hour, and the store closes on holidays. I don't know what kind of insurance benefits the staff gets.I haven't heard any of the employees complaining, in fact, I heard one employee praising the company.

Anyone here work at Aldi? I'd like to hear from insiders.

We buy our meat from a local meat market. It's a little more expensive, but we are helping support our local community members instead of a huge corporation.Plus, the hamburger doesn't shrink, tastes a lot better, and doesn't come in those nonrecyclable plastic containers that WalMart uses (we don't have a recycling center that will take that particular plastic around here).

We also shop at Kroger's, because they pay their employees well here.We also frequent the farmer's market in the summer.

I get most of my clothing and a lot of furniture at Goodwill. I consider it recycling;)We hit the clearance racks at JC Penney and Sears for anything we can't find at Goodwill or yard sales.I also like to buy gently used furniture from the want ads. I figure that way, the money is being directly funneled back into the economy.

It takes a little more time to do this instead of "one stop shopping." I can go yard saling all day and only end up with a few quality items, but the savings is usually phenomenal, and I think it's well worth my time to help out the local economy and mom and pop enterprises.

20

MY COUSIN RETURNS Franz' book TO ME - THANKS BUT NO THANKS

by JT in

jw
friends

we invited them into the family room , their eyes just popped for they recall when lady ?c?

and i got married and was living in the basement of an older couples home so that after leaving bethel-------- i could stay in the full time work, we were shooting for the traveling work.

as he put it, you all done went materialistic on us.

Cicatrix

"one would think that after awhile some jw would reconize, why is it i as a grown man can;t discuss these issues openly among fellow jw

that really should be a red flag-

when you take a college class and tell the class that you were part of a group that forbide open and free discussions, you always get some student from some commuinist or dictator type country who will speak up and say

i know all about that, my dad was killed, etc"

JT-

This is how I met and became good friends with a woman who is an exile from an Eastern European country. She had been a journalist there, and spoke out against the regime. All of her writing and her typewriter were confiscated, and she had to flee for her life to the US.

She was trying to get others in our class to understand how lucky we are to live in a country where we do have relative freedom. The majority of the class couldn't get what she meant, as they had always been free. She had a bit of a language barrier, so I explained to the class what she was trying to say. She asked me why I was able to understand, when no one else could, so I explained my background to her.

Education really is power. Perhaps that's why those in the WTS who have been in elder positions and the like are sometimes more able to easily discern the irony of the fact that the WTS condemns other churches that forbid their members to read WTS literature, then issue the same rule for their own "flock." They are intimately involved in the judicial decisions that are made, in the decisions of what members of the congregation are to know.They have seen the naked Emperor, and often have to try to cover him up, lol.

Most Witnesses also have not done an indepth study of the material in the bound volumes. They just aren't interested in going back into all those old issues (and I think the WTS tends to stay away from making quotes like the examples that you gave, now).Most Witnesses also haven't been trained to use critical thinking skills. They've been coached that everything they read is "the truth" which has been channeled from God to the faithful and discreet slave, then into the WT and Awake. To question something that is written within those "holy tomes" is to question the black and white belief system that has given their lives meaning.

I certainly understand your frustration, though. My mother has started studying with the JWs again. She is the one who tried to convince me for years that the WTS is a cult. Now she tells me she is only studying because she likes the company, and she could never understand the Bible on her own if she just tried to read it herself.And to add to the irony, she has a degree in psychology, and took comparative religion in college!!

Critical thinking skills are only employed when a person is motivated by something to make them stop and wonder. If the belief system serves a useful purpose, the person doesn't want to see the discrepencies. They may even admit they exist, then refuse to explore the issue any further, because it's a lot of work to change an entire belief system.

Often, though, a thought that you've left with someone may come back to mind years later, when they start to experience some turmoil.

So who knows, maybe some day, you will be having a party for the person who sent the book back with a note. Then you will be able to take that note out and laugh about what they did, then celebrate;)

25

You know your a mother when .....

by Angharad in

got sent this in email this morning.. .

1. you count the sprinkles on each kid's cupcake to make sure they're equal.. .

2. you have time to shave only one leg at a time.. .

Cicatrix

Lol:)These are so true.

And may I add-

you wear the macaroni and yarn necklace that your child made just for you out in public.

13

How many brought to the JWs by the door to door work?

by undercover in

jw
friends

minimus stated in another thread that 99% of newly baptized jws are children/teens of jws.

another poster said that they knew of only one person baptized in 20 years of door to door work.. let's do an informal, unscientific poll/survey:.

how many here were brought into the "truth", whether baptized or unbaptized publishers, by means of the door to door work having no prior experience with jws?