MY COUSIN RETURNS Franz' book TO ME - THANKS BUT NO THANKS

by JT 20 Replies latest jw friends

JT

We invited them into the family room , their eyes just popped for they recall when Lady ?C? and I got married and was living in the basement of an older couples home so that after leaving bethel-------- I could stay in the full time work, we were shooting for the traveling work
as he put it, YOU ALL DONE WENT MATERIALISTIC ON US
I JUST smile and said no, just something to call home at the end of the day-
We talked till 2:30AM-
They listened with disbelief as I went over many of the inner workings of the org- they continued to say
You know what I always wondered about that-
We took a brief look at wt paper trail and they could not believe how many of the articles they had read BUT IT NEVER CONNECTED
So I told him you need to read rays book for he gives you a look inside the org in a manner that no jw has ever seen.
So I told him I don?t have any copies of rays book we try to keep extras, on hand- so I ordered a bunch of them and sent him a copy along with this note:
Dennis
All of our lives we have been told what we can and can?t read well as you read this book you will see why. As Chris Rock put it, IF YOU WANT TO KEEP SOMETHING AWAY FROM A BALCK MAN PUT IT INTO A BOOK- SMILE
YOUR CUZ
JAMES
((((((
HE returned the book along with the note -- OUTSIDE on the box it says THANKS BUT NO THANKS-
I could only feel pity for him for here he was so close to freedom that he thru it away, it reminded me of myself,
I got a letter from a former bethel buddy over 13yrs ago, I sent it back- to think I could have gotten out of wt a decade earlier is sad-
What makes dennis story so sad is he is not a major player on the scene in wt, a power broker as it were, insteand he and he wife are looked down upon and spat upon by all the congo they have been in, since his letter of introduction travels wherever he goes, the elder and friends start to treat them like dirt once they relize he has a bad history,
Your deeds are rarely forgiven in wt they will bring up your past as long as you live, NO FRESH START STUFF IN WT-
So here is a man and woman who are being dogged up the ying yang, and they just missed the opportunity to get freedom, unlike the elder I sent the book to he is now on the road to freedom, as he stated I would not let my kids go to college,, I gave up a career all for the Society and they have been misleading us for all these years
It only shows that when folks are presented with FACTS, EVIDENCE, DOCUMENTATION on the org, it all depends upon what level of willingness to examine the org they are on
The elder due to his position quickly recognized many of the things ray speaks of in his book due to all the BOE letters
But for the avg jw like my cousin who has never seen what goes on behind the curtain, it is often time harder for them to accept that the org actually operates this way behind the curtain
So what is did is took the note I sent him sealed it in an envelope like I always do when folks respond this way, date it and seal it and in 10-15-20 yrs from today I will remind him of that night we sat up to 230am discussing why we need to take a serious look at the org and he didn?t
While it hurts each time I see someone get so close, it is amazing that in the years that we have hosted so many gathering here at our home for DF DA and just plain tired ole jw, my relatives have been the last to respond- how sad-
As I told one of my relatives, here you have someone who has been deeply involved in the inner workings of the org and can tell you not second hand but first hand how things are done behind the curtain and still after telling you, you walk away saying
I rather be wrong with the Society than right with you-
Which is such an oxymoron for jw have always prided themselves in wanting to know the TRUTH ABOUT A MATTer BUT the fact is only if it is the truth according to the Boys in Writing-
smile
JT

SORRY ABOUT THAT- CORRECTION COMPLETE THREAD
#########################
on thursday i went to the mailbox and there was a package that contained Ray Franz Book. what is interesting about this is that it was ?Returned? from my cousin, he refused to read it.
it said THANKS BUT NO THANKS- now what makes this interesting is the following
3 weeks ago I sent out 2 copies ? ONE to my cousin and the other to an elder who went over the questions for baptism with my mom, MY MOM WAS BAPTIZE in the late 60?s or early 70?s ? we were part of the 75 crowd growing up as kids- smile
The elder who has served in every single possible position has drafted a letter to DA himself, we spoke on Tuesday and I suggested that he hold up on that until he has better positioned himself before he makes his move and he agreed for his was making his decision entirely ON EMOTIONS-
My cousin on the other hand has been DFed 2 times , and put on public reproof once, 3 months after I was at bethel, I went out to
he is meeting with the elders- we did and he got into the car and told us that they had decided to df him, this was back in 1982, I was a young fresh bethelite, we sat in the car and it was quiet all the way home for in 7 days he would be read off,
so asked him, Dennis do you still believe this is the truth and he said
O yea of course I just got caught?
You see dennis used to run women, smoke reefer, hang out in clubs in NYC, he was just wild dude
as a result it prevented his dad from being appointed for years - BAD KIDS ?
SO OVER THE years we just lost touch I moved on with my wt career and he continued his wild ways.
Well about 2 months ago he went down south to visit our grandma and my folks, well while down there my grandma who is as dyed in the wool Baptist,
my mom or uncle could never get her out of the church event hoough she studied with everyone,
Told dennis and his wife,------ ?James left the KH?
so he went over to see my mom and my mom told him --yes james has left, so he asked her could he call me
That Sunday night I get a call about 10pm, I have not talked to dennis since I got married which was over 16yrs ago
He told me --------james you were always the serious one, the straight one in the family when it came to the truth--- pioneer , bethelite, elder--- always heard you were on the conventions programs, etc, and your moms says you left
?I have got to hear it from the horses mouth WHAT IS GOING ON?
SO I told him dennis we need to talk then, SO the next weekend him and Dawn drove down from other side of , to .
First they were shocked at the home we had built ? when he walked into our 23 foot Foyer he said, THIS LOOKS LIKE MORE THAN SUSTANCE AND COVERING TO ME
We invited them into the family room , their eyes just popped for they recall when Lady ?C? and I got married and was living in the basement of an older couples home so that after leaving bethel-------- I could stay in the full time work, we were shoot for the traveling work
as he put it, YOU ALL DONE WENT MATERIALISTIC ON US
I JUST smile and said no, just something to call home at the end of the day-
We talked till 2:30AM-
They listened with disbelief as I went over many of the inner workings of the org- they continued to say
You know what I always wondered about that-
We took a brief look at wt paper trail and they could not believe how many of the articles they had read BUT IT NEVER CONNECTED
So I told him you need to read rays book for he gives you a look inside the org in a manner that no jw has ever seen.
So I told him I don?t have any copies of rays book we try to keep extras, on hand- so I ordered a bunch of them and sent him a copy along with this note:
Dennis
All of our lives we have been told what we can and can?t read well as you read this book you will see why. As Chris Rock put it, IF YOU WANT TO KEEP SOMETHING AWAY FROM A BALCK MAN PUT IT INTO A BOOK- SMILE
YOUR CUZ
JAMES
((((((
HE returned the book along with the note -- OUTSIDE on the box it says THANKS BUT NO THANKS-
I could only feel pity for him for here he was so close to freedom that he thru it away, it reminded me of myself,
I got a letter from a former bethel buddy over 13yrs ago, I sent it back- to think I could have gotten out of wt a decade earlier is sad-
What makes dennis story so sad is he is not a major player on the scene in wt, a power broker as it were, insteand he and he wife are looked down upon and spat upon by all the congo they have been in, since his letter of introduction travels wherever he goes, the elder and friends start to treat them like dirt once they relize he has a bad history,
Your deeds are rarely forgiven in wt they will bring up your past as long as you live, NO FRESH START STUFF IN WT-
So here is a man and woman who are being dogged up the ying yang, and they just missed the opportunity to get freedom, unlike the elder I sent the book to he is now on the road to freedom, as he stated I would not let my kids go to college,, I gave up a career all for the Society and they have been misleading us for all these years
It only shows that when folks are presented with FACTS, EVIDENCE, DOCUMENTATION on the org, it all depends upon what level of willingness to examine the org they are on
The elder due to his position quickly recognized many of the things ray speaks of in his book due to all the BOE letters
But for the avg jw like my cousin who has never seen what goes on behind the curtain, it is often time harder for them to accept that the org actually operates this way behind the curtain
So what is did is took the note I sent him sealed it in an envelope like I always do when folks respond this way, date it and seal it and in 10-15-20 yrs from today I will remind him of that night we sat up to 230am discussing why we need to take a serious look at the org and he didn?t
While it hurts each time I see someone get so close, it is amazing that in the years that we have hosted so many gathering here at our home for DF DA and just plain tired ole jw, my relatives have been the last to respond- how sad-
As I told one of my relatives, here you have someone who has been deeply involved in the inner workings of the org and can tell you not second hand but first hand how things are done behind the curtain and still after telling you, you walk away saying
I rather be wrong with the Society than right with you-
Which is such an oxymoron for jw have always prided themselves in wanting to know the TRUTH ABOUT A MATTer BUT the fact is only if it is the truth according to the Boys in Writing-
smile
JT

Can you say 2 sets of scales-

when it comes to an adult having the freedom to choose his own reading material notice what the wt says for NONJW

*** yb78 p. 140 Spain ***
. Through the press and from the pulpit the people were warned not to read The Watch Tower.

*** w56 6/15 p. 365 Waging the Right Warfare ***
This is not surprising, since many are instructed not to read publications concerning the Bible unless they are first approved by the church

Yep the wt points out that when RELIGIONS tell their members what not to read it is a bad thing, esp if they are being told not to read the wt.

When other religions refer to the wt printed material as apostate or bad material-- wt take offense,

Yet as you can see below NOTICE WHAT they say to adult jw who want to choose thier own reading material

can you say 2 sets of scales

yes others should be allowed to freely and openly examine their faith but jw (like the ones here) must sneek around under the cover of darkness and Anonymity to even discuss issues involved in their religion
one would think that after awhile some jw would reconize, why is it i as a grown man can;t discuss these issues openly among fellow jw

that really should be a red flag-

when you take a college class and tell the class that you were part of a group that forbide open and free discussions, you always get some student from some commuinist or dictator type country who will speak up and say

i know all about that, my dad was killed, etc

yet jw never think about it, jw have legally done more for the rights of free speech than ANY RELIGIOUS GROUP in america from all that i have read, yet they deny the very freedoms they fight for to their own people
u got to love it

now notice how they tell jw not to read UNAPPROVED MATERIAL

++++

*** km 5/92 p. 2 Service Meetings for May ***

15 min: Protect Yourself From Apostasy. Discussion between an elder and a publisher seated at a table. Publisher explains that he met someone in service who has been reading apostate literature.

Publisher tells elder he feels householder was sincere in questions he raised. Publisher refused householder?s offer of apostate publication but would like to try to answer householder?s questions. Elder commends publisher for his good attitude and actions.

Rather than discuss what apostates have written or said, it is wise to concentrate on Scriptural viewpoint of matters as set forth in Reasoning book.

Elder invites publisher to open his Reasoning book, and together they review pages 34-7. Discussion should be warm and encouraging as they consider definition of apostasy, each bold subhead, and selected key texts as time permits.

Conclude discussion with positive comments on all the upbuilding and encouraging material we have available for study. Share upbuilding message with householder.

If he is sincere, he will see difference between the positive approach of truth and the negative, critical approach of apostates. By our rejecting apostate thinking and material, we display our loyalty to Jehovah and to his visible organization.
Larry

JT - I read your threads with much interest b/c they are very insightful - Talk about 'Inside Stuff' :) And they trigger my thinking facilities - thanks .
Your cousin, Dennis reminds me of the movie "Days of Wine and Roses" When Jack Lemmon, the alcoholic, gets cure but in the process his wife, Lee Remick, becomes an alcoholic. After many arguments and bad experiences he can't understand why she still prefers the bottle. Then she explains "But I like being an alcoholic, I don't want to be cured."
Your cousins reminds me of that line "I don't want to be cured." despite his bad experiences. Seems like his security, is in his addiction, which in this case is his beliefs, just as alcohol, drugs, or any thing addictive is the security for an addict.
I think your cousin will see the light, when he is ready - "The teacher will come when the student is ready." And if he is never ready, then at least he has his security (false) which gives him a reason for living.
Your cousin reminds us all of the times when we vehemently refused any anti-jw literature.
The power of the mind always amazes me - How one time we can die for BORG without hesitation to wanting to die for being part of the BORG. Which further makes me think how transience my thoughts, ideas, and opinions are b/c they are based on what I believe at that time. My thoughts, ideas, and opinions change with time, experience, and education. What I adamantly believe today, will change over time. My thoughts, ideas, and opinions are my security, but I know it's based on circumstances, which makes it all so transience.
I love your last line "Which is such an oxymoron for jw have always prided themselves in wanting to know the TRUTH ABOUT A MATTer BUT the fact is only if it is the truth according to the Boys in Writing-" So true! Makes me laugh at their trademark term "The Truth". Yeah right, any but the truth. "Reasoning from the Scriptures" Ha - Should be "Reasoning from the Boys in Writing" or "Reasoning that is Flawed." The logic the BORG taught me to have is the same logic that made me leave.
All the best in your efforts.
Peace - Larry :)
Sunspot

Hi JT,
I'm sorry about your cousin refusing the book---it was SO close to the goalpost...
The fact that you DID have the chance to speak with him at length in a relaxed atmosphere....probably had many benefits that will be tucked away in his mind. I wouldn't give up hope! When he didn't run screaming out of your home hollering "apostate"...and the fact that he isn't "strong" in the troof, may have yet to give him time to reflect on the conversation with you.
I'm sure you did just great talking with him.....you're so "down-to-earth" and easy to listen to. I wouldn't be surprised if you get another call from him once the information he gained has had a chance to sink in!
hugs,
Annie.....waving at Lady C to say hello!
BONEZZ

JT,
So sad when ones we care for reject factual evidence. Who knows though, you may have planted a seed and when they get tired of being crapped on, the light bulb might flicker on. Good points about the hypocrisy of the WTBS pointing out that some others tell their flocks what to read when THEY are doing the exact same thing.
-BONEZZ
metatron

I watched the History Channel recently and saw a show about North Korea. It reminded me of the organization.
Isn't it amazing that Witnesses NEVER demand quality from their leadership? I know many Witnesses who would think nothing
of demanding a hotel room change or complaining about service in a restaurant BUT NEVER APPLY EVEN A MINIMAL
STANDARD of quality to the Watchtower Society?
Nag us, "beat" us, criticize everything we do, judge us endlessly, offer mindless repetition in meetings, give us
a "ministry" that isn't anything more than dig a hole and fill it, demand that we can't buy lunch at asemblies, treat us
like children, ignore the young Witnesses leaving .........nothing matters, we won't complain, we'll keep dragging ourselves
in the Kingdom Hall door, year after year.
I once read a personal comment from a young man who did all he could do NOT to jump up at an assembly
and yell "Are all you people #&*()%$#@ nuts?!!!". I understand how he felt.
metatron
JT

Your cousin reminds us all of the times when we vehemently refused any anti-jw literature.
&&& your words my friend are so true indeed and i think almost everyone of us can relate the exp of how we reacted when comfronted with something that challenged the org
it is back to the "Shopping Cart"-- again
####
you go on to state:
'The power of the mind always amazes me - How one time we can die for BORG without hesitation to wanting to die for being part of the BORG. Which further makes me think how transience my thoughts, ideas, and opinions are b/c they are based on what I believe at that time.
My thoughts, ideas, and opinions change with time, experience, and education. What I adamantly believe today, will change over time. My thoughts, ideas, and opinions are my security, but I know it's based on circumstances, which makes it all so transience."
##
see now you messing around and getting DEEEP ON ME , what you have stated above truly sums up in my mind the powerful concept of belief systems in a general sense,
i don;t know one person who would not proclaim from the highest mountain, my belief system is THE TRUTH - imagine if you could have spoken to a JW about to face the Hitler camp or the 19 guys on the planes that hit the WTC in NYC- their mindset and determnation and conviction would have been the same-
yet if the jw were allowed to learn about his org, he would have been like you must be crazy you think i am going to die for the wt on a dogma that in 3 weeks after I'm dead willl change
or of the guys on the WTC planes had the chance to reexamine their faith, how they would have been like you must be on Wacky Weed if you think i will fly into a building
we often hear folks say, what is life if there is nothing that you are willing to die for and i agree there are things one should be willing to die for, to protect ones loved ones, etc-
but to die for a belief system only to find out it is bogus, is sad, like the guys from Japan during WWII KomiKizee
( ok i spelled it wrong, hey i attended the WT Theocratic School and never graduated what do you expect- smile
i showed your post to the guys here in the Serverroom and they were impressed with what you said-
for me it has been therpy to be able to talk at length and in detail with nonjw and to see how they viewed us as jw from their prospective
man they thought we were a FEW FRIES SHORT OF A HAPPY MEAL=
Cicatrix

"one would think that after awhile some jw would reconize, why is it i as a grown man can;t discuss these issues openly among fellow jw

that really should be a red flag-

when you take a college class and tell the class that you were part of a group that forbide open and free discussions, you always get some student from some commuinist or dictator type country who will speak up and say

i know all about that, my dad was killed, etc"

JT-

This is how I met and became good friends with a woman who is an exile from an Eastern European country. She had been a journalist there, and spoke out against the regime. All of her writing and her typewriter were confiscated, and she had to flee for her life to the US.

She was trying to get others in our class to understand how lucky we are to live in a country where we do have relative freedom. The majority of the class couldn't get what she meant, as they had always been free. She had a bit of a language barrier, so I explained to the class what she was trying to say. She asked me why I was able to understand, when no one else could, so I explained my background to her.

Education really is power. Perhaps that's why those in the WTS who have been in elder positions and the like are sometimes more able to easily discern the irony of the fact that the WTS condemns other churches that forbid their members to read WTS literature, then issue the same rule for their own "flock." They are intimately involved in the judicial decisions that are made, in the decisions of what members of the congregation are to know.They have seen the naked Emperor, and often have to try to cover him up, lol.

Most Witnesses also have not done an indepth study of the material in the bound volumes. They just aren't interested in going back into all those old issues (and I think the WTS tends to stay away from making quotes like the examples that you gave, now).Most Witnesses also haven't been trained to use critical thinking skills. They've been coached that everything they read is "the truth" which has been channeled from God to the faithful and discreet slave, then into the WT and Awake. To question something that is written within those "holy tomes" is to question the black and white belief system that has given their lives meaning.

I certainly understand your frustration, though. My mother has started studying with the JWs again. She is the one who tried to convince me for years that the WTS is a cult. Now she tells me she is only studying because she likes the company, and she could never understand the Bible on her own if she just tried to read it herself.And to add to the irony, she has a degree in psychology, and took comparative religion in college!!

Critical thinking skills are only employed when a person is motivated by something to make them stop and wonder. If the belief system serves a useful purpose, the person doesn't want to see the discrepencies. They may even admit they exist, then refuse to explore the issue any further, because it's a lot of work to change an entire belief system.

Often, though, a thought that you've left with someone may come back to mind years later, when they start to experience some turmoil.

So who knows, maybe some day, you will be having a party for the person who sent the book back with a note. Then you will be able to take that note out and laugh about what they did, then celebrate;)
JT

The fact that you DID have the chance to speak with him at length in a relaxed atmosphere....probably had many benefits that will be tucked away in his mind. I wouldn't give up hope! When he didn't run screaming out of your home hollering "apostate"...and the fact that he isn't "strong" in the troof, may have yet to give him time to reflect on the conversation with you.
###
FUNNY you say this, my wife said the same thing last night after i typed this thread- point well taken

MY COUSIN RETURNS Franz' book TO ME - THANKS BUT NO THANKS

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