Posts by HB

20

Were you surpised how little the "world" new about JW's after you left?

by donny in

i have been out of the jw organization for some time now and have been fairly active in discussing my adventures in watchtower with those who are interested.

what really surprised me in the first few years after leaving was how little the "world" knew about jw's.

we were taught that we have been warning the unwashed for 100+ years and they resist the message because satan keeps them from grasping this "good news".. in the many discussions i have had with these folks since leaving, it is amazing how little or no understanding about jw's beyond the blood issue and holidays they have.

HB

As I have never been JW and have no family connections to the religion, I know first hand how widespread the general ignorance about JWs is, at least here in the UK. For most they are a nuisance or a joke.

As a 7 yr old child, the only fact I knew about the JWs was that a boy in my class called Bryan was one and he was not allowed to join us in school assembly because we sang hymns and the head teacher said a prayer. But I was mystified as to why this was a problem as I understood that JWs worshipped the same god that the school prayed to. Bryan was a very withdrawn child and didn't make friends with anyone but at the time I didn't associate his social problems with his family's beliefs.

Then when I was in my early teens, I learnt a couple more details about the religion, as my father had a young employee called John who was a JW. I knew most of the other employees well but I didn't get to know John because, like Bryan in my junior school class, he was withdrawn and kept himself to himself. I did feel a bit sorry for him though as he always looked tortured.

The business was a nursery and I learnt from my father that John had taken the job because he needed to learn to grow plants as it would be a necessary skill after Armageddon (....the end of the world was a concept which I had never heard of till then). This just sounded silly to me and I took little notice. The only other thing I knew was that John would not accept a blood transfusion which just confirmned my general impression of it being a really wacky cult.

I remember clearly the laughter and incredulity from my parents and their friends when in 1974, John's parents sold their home and moved the family of seven into a caravan because the end was nigh. John handed his notice in to my Dad at the end of November and came and rather dramatically said goodbye to all of us on the last day of the year. On the first day of 1976, he came and asked for his job back, which everyone found rather amusing but sad too. He did get his job back but only stayed a couple more years before he started his own nursery.

After that I managed to go through my life knowing nothing more about JWs until 2008 when a friend got involverd and I joined this site I didn't even know that they didn't celebrate birthdays or Christmas.

In 1990 I did answer the door to two nice JW ladies soon after giving birth to my third child. I had the baby in my arms and my two toddlers were playing at my feet. The two JW ladies cooed over how sweet the baby was and asked if I was worried about bringing children up in this wicked world? I said no, the world was a much safer place nowadays than ever before and they told me about the last days approaching and suggested I would surely not want my children to perish as they could see I loved them very much.

So I asked them to look at my happy, healthy and beautiful newborn daughter and look me in the eye and tell me that she was sinful and deserved to die. They seemed quite embarrassed and for some reason, they decided not to reply but just gave me a leaflet, wished me well and went.

Since joining this site and getting to know some ex JWs, I now know a great deal about the religion, but I discovered there are very few outsiders, including vicars, priests and misinsters, who knows much more than I used to.

11

How many people do you know of that are ministering to J'W's and Ex-JW's but they themselves were never a JW?

by disciple in

HB

I too have never been a JW but joined the forum a few years ago to help a young 20yr old friend who was studying.

I could see that rather than helping her with her problems, the religion was making her more depressed and she was suffering with guilt. However in my inexperience, initially I stupidly attempted to help her in what I now know was a totally counter-productive way, ie by attacking the existence of God and it was only after joining the forum and learning techniques from others that progress was made.

I had help from several ex JWs here but one person in particlar (Mr Majestic) was instrumental in showing my friend from the bible and JWs own literature that the JWs did not have the Truth and over a period of weeks he got her out and she is now doing well. Mr Majestic has now become a mutual friend of both myself and my young friend (Bloomin Marvellous), which is fantastic.

I have been to a couple of apostafests in London and I read the forum regularly although I don't usually post, but last time the JWs called at my door I invited them in and was ready with a lot of awkward questions. The two nice ladies did make an appointment to come back but they rudely didn't show up. I think they suddelnly realised that I was one of the 'agents of Satan' that had taken their new young convert away from the local congregation.

I have learned so much from this site and enjoy the debates and will always be keen to help any JWs I meet to question their beliefs and to support any ex JWs if I get the chance.

44

When will world realize zero population growth?

by N.drew in

metatron in your opinion do you think the world will see it soon?

how soon?.

HB

I don't usually post here now but I do read regularly, and this thread caught my eye.

Yesterday I read an article on the UK BBC website about world population and I thought that although it may be slightly at a tangent to the topic, and I'm not sure how accurate it is, I found it interesting. I hope the tables will copy into this site as I'm not great at technology.

Heather

4 February 2012

Do the dead outnumber the living?

By Wesley Stephenson

The population of the planet reached seven billion in October, according to the United Nations. But what's the figure for all those who have lived before us?

It is often said that there are more people alive today than have ever lived - and this "fact" has raised its head again since the UN announcement about the planet's population reaching a new high.

The idea helps fuel fears that the population is expanding too fast.

It is true that if you delve back into the mists of time, the population of Earth was tiny in comparison to today and logically it might seem plausible that the living outnumber the dead.

It is agreed by most demographers that the UN figure for the number alive today is reasonably accurate. The problem is, how do you calculate how many have ever lived, and where do you start?

One group to have done the work is the Population Reference Bureau in Washington.

Wendy Baldwin from the Bureau says that the normal starting point is when Homo sapiens first walked the earth, about 50,000 years ago.

So you have a starting point and an end figure but it's the time in between that causes the problems. "For 99% of that time there is no data," she says.

Graph showing world population growth

This means experts have to make an educated guess.

In the 20th Century, the world's birth rate dropped from 40 births per 1,000 people per year to just 31 in 1995, and today it is only 23.

But long ago, humans needed a reproduction rate of about 80 births per 1,000 people per year in order to survive, Wendy Baldwin says, because people didn't live so long and far fewer of those born had children.

"Today, life expectancy is about 75-80 [years] and for most of human history that was not the case," she says.

"We have some estimates for the Middle Ages where life expectancy might have been 10-12, which means many people never made it out of childhood.

"Even if you had a lot of births, many of those never lived to actually bear children themselves."

In other words, it would be easy to underestimate the number of people who were born, lived and died, in the earlier part of human history. That estimate of 80 births per 1,000 people per year looks very high by today's standards - but in fact it is conservative, implying "a very slow population growth, much slower than anything we see today".

Added to this educated guess for the early period is much more accurate data from the modern era.

More or Less: Behind the stats

You can listen to More or Less on BBC Radio 4 and the BBC World Service or by downloading the free BBC podcast

Download the More or Less podcast

"Once you have written records, once you have censuses, when countries start to collect taxes, you start developing written record," says Wendy Baldwin.

From around 1800, and even a little before that, is where the data becomes much better. "It then becomes plausible to say [around this time] you have a billion people on earth."

This written record means that you can be pretty confident about the final figure for the number of people who have ever lived, she explains.

Population growth has mostly happened in the modern period, she says, when records were kept, so if estimates for the early period are slighhtly out, this will not drastically change the overall ratio of "ever lived" to "living".

So what are the figures? There are currently seven billion people alive today and the Population Reference Bureau estimates that about 107 billion people have ever lived.

This means that we are nowhere near close to having more alive than dead. In fact, there are 15 dead people for every person living. We surpassed seven billion dead way back between 8000BC and AD1.

Fans of science fiction may be reaching for their copies of Arthur C Clarke's classic, 2001: A Space Odyssey, at this point.

In that book, he makes the assertion: "Behind every man now alive stand 30 ghosts, for that is the ratio by which the dead outnumber the living."

But Ms Baldwin points out he was not wrong.

"He was making his statement in 1968. There were maybe 3.5 billion people currently living on earth so if you use our method, that would be one living person to 29 dead."

And will we ever reach a point where there are more alive than dead?

This would imply a very high rate of population growth.

"Could we imagine a carrying capacity of the Earth of 100-150 billion? I find that quite unimaginable."

How many people have ever lived?

Source: Population Reference Bureau estimates

Year	Population	Births / 1,000	Births since previous date

50,000BC

2

-

8,000BC

5,000,000

80

1,137,789,769

AD1

300,000,000

80

46,025,332,354

1200

450,000,000

60

26,591,343,000

1650

500,000,000

60

12,782,002,453

1750

795,000,000

50

3,171,931,513

1850

1,265,000,000

40

4,046,240,009

1900

1,656,000,000

40

2,900,237,856

1950

2,516,000,000

31- 38

3,390,198,215

1995

5,760,000,000

31

5,427,305,000

2011

6,215,000,000

23

2,130,327,622

....Number who have ever lived: 107,602,707,791

47

Wife is on that yellow brick road to the WT.

by trailerfitter in

hi, this is my first post on this forum although i have been reading many posts on here.

i feel safe enough to ask your advice and become involved now......from what i have learned about this forum it is occupied by sensible people who have left the watchtower influences for one reason or another.

i am, for want of a better word, a none believer.

HB

Hi again trailerfitter,

As was pointed out to me by my ex-JW friend, it is a big mistake to try to oppose a JW directly. I also, when I was in your position, tried to challenge my friend who was studying with similar things that you are trying. But as my friend pointed out to me, it will only push the person studying more towards the JWs.

You really need help, as I did, in trying to get your wife to see through it all. It is a mine field and a lot of damage can easily be done in your sincere efforts to help her,

Again, wishing you the best,

HB

47

Wife is on that yellow brick road to the WT.

by trailerfitter in

hi, this is my first post on this forum although i have been reading many posts on here.

i feel safe enough to ask your advice and become involved now......from what i have learned about this forum it is occupied by sensible people who have left the watchtower influences for one reason or another.

i am, for want of a better word, a none believer.

HB

Hi Trailer Fitter.

I was in a very similar situation to you a few years ago. I also have never been a JW.

A friend of mine was in a very similar position to your wife’s a few years ago. She was at the point of baptism. But an ex-JW friend of mine helped me, step by step, to try to avert her accepting the JW religion. My friend didn’t promise any results, but we went to work on her.

I won’t go into all the details now, but just to say that it all ended up for the better and we managed to get my friend out of the JWs for good.

What part of the UK are you from? Might help to chat in person. Will send you a PM, if you wish, with my details on it if you would like to contact me. If not, I wish you the best.

HB

48

Hello to everyone.... and could I ask a really basic question here please...

by JamesS in

jw
friends

i'm james i'm new to this forum as of today and i'm a ex-jw who was "born into the truth" and then left it officially at the age of twenty after "drifting out" of it for some time.

i'm now 34 and whilst i'm not exactly happy with the world i'm living in, i'm largely happy with my own life.. one question i've got about this forum - i didn't join for a long time because i thought it was for active jw's (based on the web-site url), not ex jw's, but then looking at the threads, it seems it is more for ex-jw's!

what is the demographic for the membership?

HB

Hi James,

I see you are from Haslemere..... I'm from Liphook (4 miles away).

I don't post on this forum any more (till today!) but I do read it frequently and find it fascinating. ( Sorry, I would be one of those tiresome people you mentioned on another thread that would question you madly in a social situation if I heard you had been a JW!)

I have never been a JW and none of my family were JWs but I got involved with the forum a couple of years ago because a young vulnerable friend of mine who was in the Haslemere congregation (on Wey Hill) was being sucked in and torn away from her family, and I was appalled at the way her study conductor was controlling and indoctrinating her, so I looked on the internet to learn more about the religion.

I now know that to start with, (being very ignorant about JW beliefs at the time), to my great regret, I was reasoning with my friend in completely the wrong way, attacking her belief in Jehovah directly rather than getting her to question for herself the basis of JW teachings but I didn't realise this until later.

Once I joined this forum and started learning what the Watchtower Org is about, several people gave me good advice but particularly a poster called 'Mr Majestic' who emailed me regularly and taught me how to behave and react and drip-feed information to my friend without setting off her 'apostate' alarm bells.

It took some time and ingenuity, but I eventually managed to get Mr Majestic and my friend together (long story). He used the bible and the WT Societies' own literature to open her eyes and thereby restored her sanity and returned her to her grateful family. As a JW she was constantly fearful and depressed but now she has a life and a future. (She will be in London auditioning for the X factor on Monday!) Another success story thanks to this website. She posted on here as 'Blooming Marvellous' a few times.

She and Mr Maj are now best of friends which is great, especially in view of the fact that when they first met, she acted as if he was the devil incarnate.

Seeing as we are just in the next village to you, if you would like to get together with the three of us for a chat one day, that would be great, we'd love to meet you. I am off on holiday on Saturday for a week, but on my return I will send you a message and see how you feel about it.

Heather

71

Hi I'm new here

by BloominMarvellous in

feeling guilty already about being on here, the familiar words are recalled in my mind "don't go on any jehovah's witness websites except 'watchtower.org'!

so here i am, desperate for some help.

i'm 21 and have been studying for 2 years, i was made an unbaptised publisher in february and it was all going great until i had a problem with getting a little tipsy, the elders had to come scrape me off the floor of my witness friends house and take me home.

HB

Hi BloominMarvellous,

Congratulations on your escape from the mind control and for having the courage to reclaim your independant spirit and the intelligence to reassert your critical thinking powers!

As one of your worldly friends who has known and respected you since you were a small child, I was dismayed at the beginning of last year to see how your normally strong and feisty personality was being repressed and forced to conform and your endearingly rebellious attitude was being sucked out of you.

I came to this forum to learn what you were getting in to, and the more I read, the more I became concerned. I hoped you would see the truth about the Truth before you got too indoctrinated by the Watchtower and thankfully my dreams have now come true.

As a potential convert, you were initially showered with love and attention by the JWs. Being a young person you were a prize catch, a jewel in the congregation. But what I had been told by members of this board would happen, eventually proved completely accurate. As soon as you took one independant step over the line and disobeyed the JWs' impossibly strict regulations, they withdrew the love, and showed their true tyrannical colours.

(Seriously, I could not believe they said that skirt was too short, it was literally knee-length, and worn with thick black tights, so no flesh showing!)

It's ironic that your study conductor is now angry that the two years of effort she put into teaching you and training you to behave they way the WTS dictates have come to nothing, but she cannot see that she personally has been responsible for driving you away by her cold, hurtful, over-controlling and judgemental attitudes. She claimed her friendship was not conditional on you believing what she does, but that claim has been proved completely false.

The JWs now condemn you for pulling away from Jehovah, but you can now see that all you have done is to pull away from the mind-controlling WTS organisation, not from God.

And I gather they blame me for personally causing you to sin, oh well I'll take the blame for that and the faults of everyone on this forum if you like, it's no skin off my nose, but as you know, all I did was to be a friend when you needed someone to talk to. The JWs were not prepared to listen to you without judging, so who were you supposed to talk to when you were so severely stressed and depressed? If they didn't want you to turn to worldly friends, they should have been there for you and demonstrated the Christian love they claim to have, instead of making you feel guilty and miserable, punishing you and pushing you away when you felt so bad.

You couldn't sleep or eat, you were throwing up, you had stomach pains, you couldn't go to work or function normally because of what they call 'loving' discipline. They didn't care how you felt, they just followed the rules. Made me so angry. But now the contrast is amazing, you are free to be you, laughing, joking, being positive about the future, walking with a bounce in your step and looking great.

I would like to thank all the posters here who have either directly or indirectly helped me understand the JW world, it's been like learning from scratch about a previously unknown tribe, whose shocking and bizarre culture is so alien to my life, that I could sometimes hardly believe it is called a religion. During the past year, as I learned, I initially experienced a degree of incredulity, followed by amazement, and it has been an interesting if sad experience to now see with my own eyes in the life of my friend, some cruel aspects of the way the cult operates.

This cloud has some silver linings for me though as I have unexpectedly made good friends with a few people who post here, even though I have never been in any way previously involved with JWs. And I have met a few people in person which was brilliant. Meeting Hope4others, I was quite in awe, like meeting a celebrity! But there is also another poster I have met who deserves a very special mention.

Funny how life goes. Neither BloominMarvellous or Mouthy had any idea that they would be instrumental in sparking a good frienship between two very unlikely people. I would never have come here but for BloominMarvellous and it was on a thread about cockney accents started by Mouthy that I "met" the infamous Mr Majestic. I initially decided he was an arrogant show off, albeit clever, witty and funny. But as others of you who have met him will have discovered, Mr M. is a much nicer and deeper person in real life, a really kind, generous, perceptive and empathetic person (even if his laugh is too loud!). He has become a firm and life-long friend who has taught me so much for which I can't thank him enough.

And now he is friends with BloominMarvellous too and has helped her see what the bible really says about some of the WTS teachings and has been able to support her in ways I could never have managed as I do not have the experience.

So now we're all looking forward to the belated 21st birthday celebrations in a couple of weeks.......... thanks for the invite BloominMarvellous, it's going to be loads of fun, cant wait! (Mr Maj. says you can wear your skirt as short as you like!!!!)

And here's to a bright and happy future of your own choosing.

Love Heather

2

Child witches in Africa

by Caedes in

i watched (with a growing sense of anger and disgust) a program on tv last night (dispatches - http://www.channel4.com/news/dispatches/ ) on the problem of children being accused of witchcraft in the niger delta.

these kids (even babies) are usually tortured, beaten and denied food until they "confess" if they are lucky they may be just abandoned, unlucky ones are buried alive.

the parents can purchase an exorcism quoted as being roughly a years wages, this seemed to entail further abuse of the victims.

HB

I watched the programme with tears running down my face.

The problem has only become big since 2000 when a "Christian" prophetess released a film which was widely distributed which claimed that nothing in life happens by chance and if for example, your crop fails or someone dies, it means that the youngest child in the family has been possessed and must be cast out. The prophetess was interviewed and asked where in the bible it says this but she just became very angry and defesive.

Hundreds of children are affected. I could not bear to look when the physical injuries that the so called "witch-children" received from their own families and communities were shown. Some had been burnt, buried alive, attacked with a machete, had bones broken which had not been treated for six months or had acid poured on them and worse. In addition to the physical abuse, the psychological scars of being rejected at such a young age for something you have not done and don't understand must be very hard if not impossible to heal. One child was only 3 month old.

It was disgusting that even when parents had sold all they had to pay for an 'exorcism', the money was not returned if the bishop or prophetess said the treatment had not worked and then the child still had to be cast out or killed. The 'cure' could involve groups of children being locked in a prison in the church for six months and subjected to horrific treatment including sexual abuse.

The young man who has set up a refuge to help these children deserves international recognition. No one had ever heard of him until this programme was broadcast; he should be more famous than all the celebrities and sports stars, but sadly that's not the way the world works. With up to ten physically and psychologically abused children a week arriving and needing shelter, he is fighting a losing battle, but is doing wonderful work.

He took a group of children to the Government building to stage a protest and after having to wait four hours in the heat, the state governor finally agreed to meet them and took their petition. I may be over-cynical but it made me feel that it was only because a TV crew were there that the Governor agreed to sign the bill of rights for children. But sadly since then, not one adult has been arrested for abuse and the problem is ongoing.

As Caedes said, this child abuse is done in the name of Christianity. It's sick

24

Can someone help me with the latest thinking on Boy Scouts??

by lrkr in

just wondering what, if anything has been published in the past about joining the boy scouts?

is it an automatic da, like joining the army?

?.

HB

My friend who was a Brownie Leader, was told by the Elders last July that if she wished to be baptised as a JW, she must give up helping at Brownie meetings.

(Brownies is the section of GirlguidingUK for 7 to 10 yr old girls, Girlguiding being the UK equivalent of Girl Scouts)

She very reluctantly resigned from being a Brownie Leader, (she loved it), but she is not yet baptised. It was with the aim of helping her that I first came to JWD, and posters here warned me that membership of Guiding would not be tolerated by her congregation. They were sadly proved right.

TV programme: Watchtower mags are Junk Mail

by HB in

thought you might like to hear about a programme on uk tv (channel 4) yesterday in which jws featured.. it was a light-hearted and quirky programme called junk mail britain where the presenter who has hoarded all his junk mail for the past 5 years, went out into his community (willesden, nw london) to meet the people behind the various businesses and companies who were trying to get his custom via leafletting.. http://www.channel4.com/video/brandless-catchup.jsp?vodbrand=junk-mail-britain.

it was fun and much more interesting than you might think from this brief synopsis.

he met everyone from taxi drivers to pizza takeaway firms to find out how much business they got from junk mail and then interviewed some of the people who trailed from door to door dropping unwanted leaflets through letterboxes.

HB

Thought you might like to hear about a programme on UK TV (Channel 4) yesterday in which JWs featured.

It was a light-hearted and quirky programme called Junk Mail Britain where the presenter who has hoarded all his junk mail for the past 5 years, went out into his community (Willesden, NW London) to meet the people behind the various businesses and companies who were trying to get his custom via leafletting.

http://www.channel4.com/video/brandless-catchup.jsp?vodBrand=junk-mail-britain

It was fun and much more interesting than you might think from this brief synopsis. He met everyone from taxi drivers to pizza takeaway firms to find out how much business they got from junk mail and then interviewed some of the people who trailed from door to door dropping unwanted leaflets through letterboxes.

The best item he saved to last. He was in the bath reading a book on a Saturday morning and there was a knock at the door. He went down stairs in his dressing gown to find two demurely dressed ladies offering him a little booklet to read. (Cue backgound chuch organ music!). I'm not sure if these were actresses but I don't think so.

His voice-over comment was that out of all the hundreds of pamphlets he receives, there is only one group of people so polite that they actually ring his doorbell in person to deliver theirs. No obvious disrespect was shown but I think there was irony in his voice.

Various different Watchtower magazines were displayed on screen with the comment that they have the largest circulation of any in the world. Not sure if he was trying to suggest they are the greatest producers of junk mail, but possibly.

He decided that since the JWs visited his house several times a year, it was only fair that he should go to theirs. (I shouted at the TV "don;t go!" but nevertheless I was very curious as never having been a JW, I had never seen inside a Kingdom Hall and now I have).

The presenter interviewed someone who talked blandly about not just dropping leaflets though letterboxes but trying to engage people in conversation, and about people living in fear in the modern world, and how many were scared to open thier doors to people or show hospitality to others for fear of what might happen.

The presenter then dons a suit and tie and attends a meeting. He comments that church attendance has dropped over recent years but the JWs have gone forth and multiplied and their membership is now 130,000 in the UK. This congregation was attended by over 20 different nationalities.

Then a speaker was filmed giving a talk from the platform. He spoke about real freedom being an elusive goal and drawing attention to 'the hundreds of millions of people who have enslaved themselves into harmful addictions, slavery into alcohol, drug abuse and the viewing of pornography".

The camera cut at this point to the face of the visiting presenter which was a picture of puzzlement.

The clip would not be interesting to most of you, as this stuff is or was what you lived with regularly, but to me it was an eye opener. Having read on JWD a little about what happens in meetings, the one thing I was surprised at was that the speaker's voice was really patronising with a slow delivery as if he was talking to 5 year olds. I would have personally felt insulted by his tone if I was an adult there!

Was this speaker unusual or do many of them talk down at the congregation?