by Robdar 63 Replies latest jw friends
It will be a mess with us there. It will be a mess without us there.
My son and I were talking about this just last night. We came to this same concusion. Let's pick up and go home. Keep our troops that haven't been blown up or have had limbs missing etc,------come home to their families. There have been MORE than enough sacrifices made.
Annie
We left India in a much better state than when we found it.
Holey Moley. Where do I even begin to dissect this one? Ok lets start with the very basic:
I know that this way off topic but any replies to my questions are more than welcome!
In 1967, when the US had been in Vietnam in some form or another for five years (and bombing the crap out of the country for three), I thought it was time to get out... and so did most of my friends. They finally exited Saigon in 1973, six years later, nine years after the real fighting started and more than a decade after "advisors" were sent there.
You can expect a similar pattern in Iraq.
Is it time to get out of Iraq?
If I was asking this question Robin, I would of asked it like this:
"We as Americans have a stark choice: to go on indefinitely fighting a politically self destructive counterinsurgency war that keeps the jihadists increasingly well supplied with volunteers or to withdraw from a post-Saddan Hussein Iraq that remains chaotic and unstable and beset with civil strife and thereby hand Al Qaeda and its allies a major victory. Which will we choose?"
As far as I can see, we really don't have a choice. Even if there was no link between Iraq and Al Qaeda before Iraq, there is now. Iraq is now the training ground that will prepare the next generation of terrorists and a televised stage from which the struggle of radical Islam against the U.S. can be broadcast throughout the Islamic world.
CRR mentioned Zarqawi alienating the Shia I believe. Well... this is exactly what he wants, he wants to provoke a civil war by doing so. It's a strategy of provocation which plays on an underlying reality: that Iraq sits on a critical sectarian fault line in the middle east and that a conflict there would play strong with the neighboring states with Iran supporting the Shia, and Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Jordan, and Syria supporting the Sunnis.
This...is our cold war in a sense
We're just waiting till they run out of steam
- Preston
If Iraq was left to Al Quida then they would have massive oil revenues and be the worst nightmare America could imagine IMO. Nice work Mr Bush.
I know that this way off topic but any replies to my questions are more than welcome!
I think you should look at the life of the average Indian before British rule and under British rule. Yes, somethings were done wrong but on the whole the country was modernised. People made careers out of going to India as administrators, learning the language etc. and becoming part of the culture that simply isn't done now.
If Ghandi protested against the current world power in the same way he did against the British, would he be invited to tour America? Would he just be machine-gunned down for not getting back in line?
He could only bring about the change because of the inherant respect and civility of the rulers at the time.
Yes, the British empire did some things wrong but on the whole they did good and left a thriving stable nation behind. Do you think the same will be said of Iraq? Not unless the occupation changes shape and continues for a long, long time.
Where are the people learning Iraqi to help transform the country? The lack of real investment in the deep down skills needed to bring about the transformation makes me think that America is not really interested in long-term change ... just short term occupation so that the pil keeps flowing to them.
We treated the Indians better than you treated your Indians............. ISP
I think you should look at the life of the average Indian before British rule and under British rule. Yes, somethings were done wrong but on the whole the country was modernised. People made careers out of going to India as administrators, learning the language etc. and becoming part of the culture that simply isn't done now.
Surely many English citizens made careers in India and lived there and blended in, so to speak, but this did not improve the life of the average Indian at all. See my first post!
Where are the people learning Iraqi to help transform the country? The lack of real investment in the deep down skills needed to bring about the transformation makes me think that America is not really interested in long-term change ... just short term occupation so that the pil keeps flowing to them.
I agree with you on this 100%. And this is precisely what happened during the British rule in India! (and in other areas as well---Africa, Caribbean, South America)
And why did we attack Germany in WW2?
because they declared war on us?
They didn't.
We shouldn't have invaded a sovereign nation without any real justification in the first place. Iraq is Pandora's Box, and Bush is the asshole who chose to open it, at the expense of hundreds of thousands of lives. I didn't vote for this idiot in either election, and I'm disappointed that a good number of people were so uninformed as to vote for this jackass. We will pay for their ignorance.
Saddam's iron-fisted rule was the only thing that kept the divisions in Iraq from escalating to civil war. Now that he's gone, there's no one to keep these folks in line, and terrorism will continue. Civil war is a very real possibility, and the likely outcome is a regime hostile to the U.S. I'm not betting on the opening of a McDonalds in Baghdad any time soon.
I agree with 144001,
There is a distinct possibility that the Iraq fiasco will degenerate into civil conflict with every chance that the regime that takes over will be totally anti-west. etc.It may turn out to be everything that we accused Iraq of before..but incorrectly. i.e linked to international terrorism etc. We would have created the monster.
Its easy to say in hindsight but the way forward with Iraq was to allow the weapons inspectors in...they would have not found anything of course...but we could easily have put pressure on Saddam to have free elections in the years to come. At the time he was up for a deal. Look at what has had happened to Bad Boy Gaddaffi......he is in the fold now. The plan would have been to change Iraq from within. Giving some financial support would have been damn cheaper than the bottomless pit we have now.
ISP
