Mommy, what if I became a Republican and drove an SUV.
Don't push your luck you little bastard
THAT was too funny! lol.
Liltoe, jeanie, you have made a great contribution to this discussion ..thx
Is "unconditional love" a myth??
by Brummie 171 Replies latest jw friends
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Brummie
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Terry
The problem is that a logic based word is being used to try to describe something that runs much deeper in the human psyche: emotion. Mankind has tried its best to understand emotion, to box it into a defined category, to analyze it and dissect it and make it an exact science. Mankind has failed miserably because I will submit to you and everyone else that this is impossible to do. The problem is not whether or not there is unconditional love, but that the word does not exist to describe what this special love is. Perhaps unconditional is the closest word that we have and we use it because it is as close as we can get at this time. Jean
Emotion is what we subjectively experience as a sensation following our encounter with a person or thing we have attached a VALUE to.
The EMOTION is a direct result of the VALUE.
Logic is not magic; it is cause and effect observed and repeated at all places at all times.
The reason you may be having a problem coming up with a label for this imaginary condition without a referent (Unconditional Love) is perhaps because it is like a Unicorn. There ain't any.
There are two worlds of the mind; one applies to the real world and the other to the way we DESIRE the world to be.
You are confusing our DESIRE for an ideal world with the real one. You can grit your teeth and insist all you want; but, the real world does not change according to our "feelings".
That would be magic.
There ain't any.
Just self-delusion.
T.
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orangefatcat
No way!! there is unconditional love, Just look into the eyes of a baby or a new pet like a kitty or doggie. The love they emminate is of the purest kind.
Ordinary love is selfish, darkly rooted in desires and satisfactions". "Divine love is without condition, without boundary, without change. The flux of the human heart is gone forever at the transfixing touch of pure love."
Uncondional love or loving ?in spite of,? is based on someone loving another in spite of what has come to pass or what may come in the future. It is love with no strings attached. It is love without restriction, reservations or conditions. It is the ability to maintain pure love in spite of all odds or circumstances. Unconditional love is the one that will last a lifetime. This is the type of love everyone seeks. I know only one way to love, and I believe it?s the right way?that is, all the way, with everything I?ve got. The romantic in me believes that getting hurt is worth the risk if, ultimately, it leads you to find that one pure love you can rely on. Pure love is worth just about anything.
Love Orangefatcat.
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jeanniebeanz
Emotion is what we subjectively experience as a sensation following our encounter with a person or thing we have attached a VALUE to.
The EMOTION is a direct result of the VALUE.
Ok, I'm with you so far...
Logic is not magic; it is cause and effect observed and repeated at all places at all times.
I am not sure where that came from. I think we understand that logic is not magic. If you are saying that people who believe in the concept of "unconditional love" automatically believe in magic, it's a stretch.
The reason you may be having a problem coming up with a label for this imaginary condition without a referent (Unconditional Love) is perhaps because it is like a Unicorn. There ain't any.
You are stating an absolute in connection with an emotion. Emotions being the subject of a value placed on a person or an item per your own definition are in a constant state of flux as values do change. However, since it is possible for some hold to an initial value in spite of any circumstance, I sincerely doubt that any stated absolute would be 100% true. According to your biography, which is quite moving btw, you lump all things in life into two camps (from your web site):
I divide the world into what is testable and what isn't. What isn't testable is opinion. What is opinion has a certain mysterious curiosity to it; but, it is dangerous to pretend about it.
Again, since we cannot run tests on this emotion which is referred to as 'unconditional love' I can understand why the idea makes you uncomfortable. This is especially true since you seem to feel that since the idea of 'unconditional love' is an opinion, it may even be dangerous to cling to.
There are two worlds of the mind; one applies to the real world and the other to the way we DESIRE the world to be.
You are confusing our DESIRE for an ideal world with the real one. You can grit your teeth and insist all you want; but, the real world does not change according to our "feelings".
I can assure you that my teeth are not grinding at all. However, much of the world we live in is built on our desires and feelings. Our perspectives and opinions shape our worldview, and given time and determination, our worldviews and perspectives have changed the real world.
That would be magic. There ain't any. Just self-delusion.
I already stated my opinion on the use of absolute terms so the first two statements have been answered. On the self-delusion, though, I disagree. There is a difference between self-delusion and belief in an opinion. Self-delusion exists when someone is shown incontrovertible facts and chooses to delude themselves into disbelief of the facts. The existence of 'unconditional love' in the traditional understanding of the term is not something that one can test. Therefore to believe in it is to hold to an opinion and not self-delusion.
Many people here have had our beliefs in the boundless love possible within mankind shattered by the betrayal of the WTBTS. Some come out of the experience with shattered faith in the unseen and a raw, purely logic based view of humankind. Emotions are considered to be less valuable than raw facts and figures that can be proven. If it cannot be tested or proven, it has little or no bearing on their lives. Many of these people turn to education either formal or informal to fill the void left by the 'society' and cram their brains with facts and figures and information and philosophy. For some their advanced 'understanding' of the human race seems to elevate them above others. They look down on those who stubbornly insist that there is more than what can be quantified as unintelligent or illiterate.
Another camp comes out of the experience with their faith bruised but still somewhat intact. Many of these people have become highly educated but have not developed the same attitude toward the unseen as the former group when it comes to concepts which require faith such as a continuing belief in God or the highly debated concept of 'unconditional love'.
Of course, this is my opinion and not everyone is going to agree with me but that is to be expected in a free society.
Jean
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Tigerman
The world of delusion( like our real world ) is that of self and others; no matter the conscience or real self. We, as brothers and sisters, in the world, insist upon a unificalality of soul and mind ; desiring all and yet only giving what we feel is all, although it's nothing compared to the true devotion that , we, as persons can give to the cause of love and the bringing together of man's forces everywhere. Let us reach out to the clouds and light for there is the answer to the mystery: there is all. Do not be afraid, for Light is among you. Let it surround and impress itself into you, for you to be it too must be.
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musashi
I hate to say this but that is a question that many may have a problem with...the answers may be varied...like asking if there is an end to the universe what is on the other side? The question cannot be really answered objectively.
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Terry
Terry said: Logic is not magic; it is cause and effect observed and repeated at all places at all times.
Jeanniebean said: I am not sure where that came from. I think we understand that logic is not magic. If you are saying that people who believe in the concept of "unconditional love" automatically believe in magic, it's a stretch.I was making a direct reply to your statement in the previous post. You said:
The problem is that a logic based word is being used to try to describe something that runs much deeper in the human psyche: emotion
It was your assertion that emotions are illogical. I offered that they are not illogical at all, but, follow the value we place on some person or thing. We learn the logic of the connection between value and emotion by observation of the cause and the effect.
If we believe a snake bite can kill us and we run into a snake we experience fear. Fear is the emotion that follows the value we place on losing our life.
If we are completely familiar with snakes and their habits we become accustomed to being around them and the value changes and so does the reaction of fear. It disappears! That's logical.
And speaking of the human psyche.....it does not exist. It is purely a projection of the imagination from ancient Greek thinking. It has never been seen, felt, measured, weighed or demonstrated to exist. You can only assert it and use your imagination for that belief. You will value it accordingly and then feel the EMOTIONAL resonance which, then, assures you you are right!
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jeanniebeanz
It was your assertion that emotions are illogical. I offered that they are not illogical at all, but, follow the value we place on some person or thing.
I do not believe that emotions are always illogical. However, I do not believe that there is always a logical explanation for them either. Again, emotions are not something that we can define in terms of measurement, which, I believe, frustrates the person who uses logic to define value in their lives.
And speaking of the human psyche.....it does not exist. It is purely a projection of the imagination from ancient Greek thinking. It has never been seen, felt, measured, weighed or demonstrated to exist.
Here we go again with the absolutes. How can anyone possibly say for certain whether or not it exists? Most of this debate has fallen into two camps:
"If I cannot measure it, see it, touch it, it does not exist. How can you people believe in something that makes no sense to me?"
and...
"I wish to believe in things which I feel, although not quantifiable, elevate mankind in some way. Why must I give this up or be labeled as unintelligent?"
It's all a matter of opinion...
Jean
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Terry
Jean says: How can anyone possibly say for certain whether or not it exists? Most of this debate has fallen into two camps:
"If I cannot measure it, see it, touch it, it does not exist. How can you people believe in something that makes no sense to me?"
and...
"I wish to believe in things which I feel, although not quantifiable, elevate mankind in some way. Why must I give this up or be labeled as unintelligent?"
It's all a matter of opinion...
Jean
You cannot be unintelligent, Jean, you are here! Only the best of the best end up on this discussion board questing and prodding and taking courage to fight for reality. Reality does require a struggle and no question or position can be sacred or off limits. You are among the courageous!
I'd like to merely point out that in your words above you identify the fact that you 'WISH to believe in things which I feel....."
Wishing and believing are a kind of hopeful imagining of an ideal condition. Nothing wrong with that. Nothing at all. We all make wishes and we all believe things. I don't begrudge you that.
I just like to keep the night light on inside my head to prevent a thing from happening which caused me to waste a great portion of my life. Namely: delusional and unfounded belief. So, I keep careful inventory of the definitions of my concepts. I check them at the gate (like an airport security officer) and pat them down for hidden weapons.
I fell for the Jehovah's Witness line of baloney hook, line and sinker. I was intelligent (so I thought) and naive and hopeful and I liked the myth they laid out for me. It appealed to me. So, I went with it. I NEVER want to allow myself this vulnerability again.
Think of it this way. I'm like a person who has contracted AIDS virus through casual sex with the wrong person. I now have a horror of casual contact. My drug cocktail consists of daily doses of objective inspections of my thought process. It is a drag. It is not a happy process. But, I'll die (intellectually) if I fail to do it. It also makes my hyper-pedantic sounding. And, I don't mean to be.
I just want to screen ideas that come into view for veracity as far as humanly possible.
Our rational mind is the FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE against wishful-thinking that turns into belief that turns into ideology which becomes a way of life.
I admire you, Jean, for being here and fighting for your point of view. I really do.
Terry
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Terry
No definitions were found for unificalality.
Suggestions:- Make sure all words are spelled correctly.