Check out this letter

by unbeliever 85 Replies latest members private

  • Valis
    Valis

    sorry steve and robdar, I have to disagree. Standing up to such behavior can be just as empowering as putting on the kid gloves and subjecting one's emotional state to guilt from the people who are supposed to have loved you from the get go. Communication is different than trying to have a meaningful conversation with someone who is constantly bearing witness and putting their faith before everything else in life. Communication is dependent on not just an exchange, but a willingness to give and take. I don't have to tell anyone that isn't the norm for JWland, which leads me to believe we aren't talking about normal people communicating either. The daughter leaves JWland and is now somehow to blame for her mother's delusion, or taking control of her own life? Somehow to blame for her mother's reactions and guilt tripping? The daughter is somehow supposed to be the bigger person, the better communicator after the mother's betrayal of what family really is? No freakin way.....

    Sincerely,

    District Overbeer

  • adelmaal
    adelmaal
    You have told anyone that will listen how we don?t have a relationship with you because you chose to leave a religion. You make it sound so simple.

    How much more simple could it be? I believe the mom is the one who just made it sound simple... LOL!

    I remember when the elders asked you if you were fornicating you lied about it. You flat out lied, looked in their eyes and lied without a second thought.

    Like her sex life is anybody else's business? The elders have no right to approach anyone about their sex life; let alone a young woman. It borders on sexual harassment.

    if you have to pretend to be interested in religion to be with your mother

    Then your mother really needs to get a grip on reality. It is not the daughter who choses not to be with her mother. It is the mother who chooses not to be with her daughter. The mother is the one with the choice. She can choose to love her daughter or not. Love should not be conditional.

    As for letting your children have a relationship with a JW relative. Why not? The door should swing both ways though. I would not allow my daughter to have dealings with my relatives if they chose not to have dealings with me. Especially, if they want to talk to your child about a religion that feels you are wrong in every way shape and form (undermining your parental authority and hurting your children in the process) and that you will be destroyed. That is unacceptible.

  • Valis
    Valis

    adel...nice post and welcome to the forum.

    Sincerely,

    District Overbeer

  • adelmaal
    adelmaal

    Why thank you District Overbeer Glad to be here...

  • steve2
    steve2
    Standing up to such behavior can be just as empowering as putting on the kid gloves and subjecting one's emotional state to guilt from the people who are supposed to have loved you from the get go. Communication is different than trying to have a meaningful conversation with someone who is constantly bearing witness and putting their faith before everything else in life.

    I was actually recommending standing up to such behaviour but choosing to "language" matters in a more helpful way; a way that emphasises the need for both sides to be heard. Yes, I totally agree, that should this approach be taken and the daughter conclude that the mother still refuses to moderate her manipulative manner, the daughter may need to take a firmer and clearer stand. Stone's Difficult Conversations is most decidely not about being a pushover, but focuses on finding clear and more conciliatory ways of reaching out to others.

    Of course, if this fails, the self-respecting thing to do is to protect oneself from the emotional abuse. At least the daughter would know she tried her best to model a more adult and less manipulative form of communication than that used by her mother.

  • Golf
    Golf

    Wow was that some letter and wow we got some comments about the letter. Does your family have a mirror at home?

    No, there is nothing that you can say that will change their minds about you.

    My mom use to do things like that to me until I made it a practice to hang up or leave the house while visiting. Over time, this solution worked. Please do not waste my time, please!

    Hang in there!


    Guest77

  • unbeliever
    unbeliever

    Here is her reply.

    Dear Mom,

    I thought for several days about your letter. I was not sure how to respond but then I remembered something early on in my relationship with XXXXX. I will tell you the story from the beginning. He took me home to meet his family and I was so nervous. My mind was racing with thoughts what if they don?t like me? What will I tell them about my own family? Something very interesting happened. XXXXX was raised Catholic and his family is very active in the church. He has a younger sister who left the Catholic Church and joined an entirely different religion. I asked Jason if his parents still spoke to her and he looked at me like I was crazy. He did not understand why I would ask a question like that. His sister was not excommunicated from the Catholic Church and she is not shunned. They don?t treat her any differently and respect her beliefs. Nobody pressured her to come back or showed up at her door 3x a week trying to bring her back into the fold. Mom that is what a normal family is supposed to be like. I hate to tell you this but our family is not normal.

    I should say my former family. I consider XXXXX?s family to be my real family now and of course my blood relatives who have been extremely supportive. All I did was tell them the truth. Have you considered that how you treat me might not be the only reason why they will not speak to you? Try talking to them about anything but your religious beliefs and see what kind of response you get.

    There are two things I need to tell you. XXXXX and I are getting married in the summer. You are invited to come. It will not be held in a church. At this point I am not ready to join any religion and would not feel comfortable getting married in one. The other thing I need to tell you is that XXXXX is going to be raised Catholic. XXXXX is not active in the Catholic Church but since her birth he has decided to take a more active role.

    There is no other way to tell you this but if you want to continue with your visits you have to respect this decision. I don?t want to be hassled about it. I am not going to change my mind and neither is XXXXX.

    My last point is that your letter reeked of guilt and emotional blackmail. The past cannot be changed and I refuse to apologize for following my heart. I hope that one day we can be a normal family but until then I am going to live a happy life with or without you in it.

    Love,

    XXXXXX

  • unbeliever
    unbeliever

    Okay why can't I post the whole letter?

    I did not have trouble posting the first one. One more time.

    It's a miracle. I finally got it to work.

  • Daughter of Freedom
    Daughter of Freedom

    Thank you for sharing this with us. It is very painful and hurtful for everyone concerned.

    The comments that have been made in favour of the mother are very kind and maybe 'insightful', but really the issue here is the daughter. We do not know the circumstances, so we are all probably making our individual responses based on our own personal exact experience. This must be taken into consideration by the readers. Whatever I say now, will be based on my exact experience. The only people I am judging are myself and my family, and I do not wish to cause offence or apply my circumstances as a general way to deal with the JWs!

    When I read the letter it was, like many others have said, like my own parents could have written it. However the letter was written by the mother, or whatever intention it had, how it reads is as self pitying drivel. Frankly, it was so similar to my own parents comments, the 1st time I read the letter I felt like it was to me and I felt guilty! Fortunately, I pulled myself together and reading the other posts here has helped a lot. I decided to go and get out the few letters I have received since I left 14 years ago.

    I noticed somewhere today (maybe not even in this forum) that someone thought we posters were hiding behind our usernames and false identities. So noone can say this in relation to this post and therefore say 'we don't know the circumstances' I will briefly share myself with you all.

    My name is Sarah. I am 34. Married with 2 kids. I was born & bred a JW. 2 older brothers. 2 younger brothers. Mum & Dad devout JW's- Dad is an elder. Baptised at 17. I had sex before marriage with my fiance at 18, but repented and was not DF. I split with my fiance (son of JW elder) because he hit me. I was not allowed to share this with anyone as 'that does not happen to JWs'. I tried to commit suicide as I received no support (despite what my parents think). I found comfort in the bed of another JW brother, which I confessed & repented and was not DF for. I have omitted so much detail from this that it is barely a story, but I want to get across the basic points PLUS show that I am not hiding anything I have done. I am not putting this here to be judged or commented on!

    I started to question things in the bible, which I won't go into here, but it is basic stuff (which in a strange way proves I should NOT have ever been baptised!). The PO even could not answer me. The fact that a brother had hit me & got away with it, the fact 1/144,000 in a local KH was a wife beater, the fact there was so much hypocrisy....lots of things. I knew I had to get out.

    I met Mike my now hubby of 13 years (non JW). I set up home with him outside of marriage. I got pregnant. I refused to see the elders, because they were not just interested in my 'sin' or 'repentance'. It was sick and perverted. The details they ask of a young girl regarding sex is frankly disturbing. My dad rang me up in work to tell me I was being DF'd. That was 1991- I was 20.

    The 'fall out' from that is indescibable. It's comforting to know that I do not need to descibe it to most of you because you've all felt the same pain.

    My parents disowned me. My 2 older brothers refused to have anything to do with me. My parents forbid my 2 younger brothers (age 11 & 9) to speak to me. I was VERY close to my 11 year old brother and that broke our hearts. That's a whole other story too- but he was told that if he spoke to me I would die, so would run away from me incase I dropped dead in front of his very eyes.

    I would still go home to see my family, though my 2 little bros would be packed off to another room upstairs so I could not see them. I did not give up, and I was quiet and reasonable- until the day my 11 year old brother ran away from me, at which point I let my mum know exactly how I felt. So they moved 100 miles away from me.

    My eldest bro' DA'd and left (for which I got the blame!). The brother next oldest (I'll call him No.2!) started to speak to me after he got married, but I was always disgusted with fact he'd been in prison for a serious crime and I had stood by him, even visiting him in jail, yet he had turned his back on me!

    My parents would come back to this area to visit bro No2, and drive past my door to do so. They would visit if they felt they could, NEVER when I needed them or asked them, or pleaded with them. I remember I had a plumbers merchant by my house and they asked me to get something for them which they could collect from me as they were passing by, as the shop would be shut during their visit! It wasn't only hurtful that they didn't come to see me, but they were bypassing their grandchildren (by this time I was married with 2 children).

    Now & again I would have glimmers of false hope, and things would seem to move in the right direction. I was asked to stay with them, and re-established a relationship with my 2 younger brothers over time. During 1 visit I was looking through family photos which my mum keeps in a big box and found some letters my mum had written to my son (but never posted). One she had written on the day I got married, and I was only pregnant, so whether she intended to ever let my son see the letters I do not know, another she wrote the day he was born, and the last one was on his 1st birthday. I would type them up, but it's like ramblings of a deranged woman, so won't boggle your minds with it. She constantly talks about 'deposits at a bank' which are obviously meant to be symbolic as her 'bank' is with her creator. I think her deposits are 'hope'. She is trying to justify not being at my wedding/his birth/around for him by religious twoddle talking of all being in Paradise together. It is babble. Rambling. Religious claptrap. She makes it sound like she has been 'denied' being there for us, like it is out of her control- it is all for The Greater Good.

    I will type some quotes (not taken out of context either before anyone complains!):-

    "The special gift I have laid aside for you is a hope. If my deposit comes up & pays off you will gain your mum & hopefully your dear dad in Paradise forever"

    "Please forgive me if I hurt you on the way to Paradise but I believe that if we can stand together evetually with your mum & dad it will be the best gift you will ever have been given"

    "Your mother has been caught in a terrible trap but she used to have a kind heart" (I personally object to that as it implies to my son that I do NOT have a kind heart!)

    "To have you & your mummy & daddy in paradise is worth any pain, any sacrifice"

    "More than all else little grandson I hope we have you with us forever & ever in God's lovely clean earth with your mummy & daddy too"

    AND letters to me (which were sent to me- not hidden away!):-

    "Even though you have put yourself - and our family- in this position all is not lost. The nation of Israel were invited to return to Jehovah...."

    "We are well aware of your feelings but we are also aware of our creators feelings and we cannot put you above Him"

    I have tried to have reasonable discussions with my parents, but it is an impossibilty. My dad is proud of belonging to a brainwashing org as he says it keeps his mind clean from the sins of this world. My parents berate me for pagan activities such as xmas which I celebrate in my own home, but continue to have white wedding dresses, veils, wedding rings exchanged in their place of worship- equally pagan!

    I have let my parents look after my children on occassion, but it always causes a row somehow- mainly because they forget and then tell family I don't let them have the children! Plus, the letters I found do cast a real doubt in my mind as to what exactly my mum would be feeding their minds with when she has them alone.

    My dad told me 2 years ago it was a 'mistake to ever have a relationship with' me. How can I allow them to see my children when they have NO respect for me, my husband or my marriage? What message does this give to my children? I have told my parents they can visit my children here, but they refuse. My mum started to get stupid and post notes through the door addressed to the children telling them how much she missed them and that they were missing out on 'pocket money'- though they had never given my children money! I told them to knock that right off! One letter my mum said "Give my love to your mum & dad too". My son's answer to that (without any prompting!) was 'If she wants to give you her love, why can't she give it to your herself?" (from the mouths of babes....!!!)

    Also, my mum's family have been very supportive of me. She has 2 sisters and 1 brother who are not JW's. They have been very helpful, especially 1 aunty who has given me great spritual help (without religion). My mums family have a complete disregard for her religious beliefs now (though they love her very much and would not shun her). This is NOT because of my actions. It is because of my parents actions. The JWs really need address this issue because they are so obviously wrong on this DF crap it shines out like a beacon! Treating someone with contempt is not the way to bring them back to the fold. Treat them with love.... why not try that?

    As for other comments about the DF'd person being equally to blame. I can understand where that comment has come from. The reality is that no matter how kind and reasonable your words, if the parents constantly refuse to see anyones position but the WTS, and blindly follow that, then there is no chance. I was becoming a doormat. I could not deal with any more pain inflicted on me by them.

    I spoke out. I said only true things. Now I'm probably an 'apostate' as well as an unrepentant fornicator. They don't want anymore to do with me. Therefore they will not have anymore to do with my children as they came from me.

  • Sassy
    Sassy

    I couldn't read through the letter.. I just got a 'we can't talk to you any more" letter from my mom as well... god it hurts

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