Check out this letter

by unbeliever 85 Replies latest members private

franklin J

...seriously dysfunctional woman....
I sure hope the daughter sees a therapist to work this out for herself. Having a mother like that is sure to have left some emotional baggage scarring...
Robdar

Both sides are using religion to bring a wedge into their relationship.
Seems to me that the daughter and the parents need to chill out and learn to be more tolerant of each other.
unbeliever

Seems to me that the daughter and the parents need to chill out and learn to be more tolerant of each other.
Are you kidding me?
Robdar

No, I'm not kidding you. All I have is the letter that you posted to go by. Going by that, it seems to me that the daughter did not handle things well. Which is to be understood. But to continue to be intolerant in return is not the answer.
And before you ask, yes, I've gone through the same thing with my parents when I left. Except for a couple of points, that letter could have been written to me. I have been hit, shunned, disowned and accused of awful things because of leaving. During 20 years of this, I lost my temper only once with my parents. My payoff for being kind to them? My parents haven't set foot in a KH for over 2 years. I could tell you more but events are still unfolding.
Believe what you want but it has been my experience that love and patience is a better way to deal with this than perpetuating misunderstanding and intolerance.
Robyn
RescueMe

Well I nearly cried when I read that letter. This is how I would have responded to it, and again this is just my own personal viewpoint, after having lived the life I have, and living in and growing up in a home where love was 100% conditional, so maybe I am a bit bitter and biased in my response.

(Red text is the mothers portion of the letter)

I have been thinking so much about you. It has been very painful not having you in our lives anymore. This is not a plea for you to come back to Jehovah. I know you no longer believe so unless that changes I no longer have hope of you coming back.It is painful for me not having you in my life as well. I no longer believe in an organization, but that does not mean I do not believe in Jehovah, there is a difference in the two whether you wish to acknowledge that fact or not, so you are right, I will never come back to the organization. Jehovah and I are good though. There are some issues that I wanted to clear up. You seem to think that it?s easy for us not to have a relationship with you. We think about you morning, noon, and night. You don?t realize how much we want to have you in our lives. But it always comes back to that you chose to dedicate your life to Jehovah and you broke that promise. Not only did you break that promise but also you are not repentant. I know you say that you got baptized too young and consider it null and void but that topic has been rehashed enough. I don?t think we will ever agree on that.
Do you think it?s easy for me to not have a relationship with my family? Do you think that it?s easy for anyone to live knowing that their family won?t accept them for who and what they are, instead takes the views of an organization and projects them onto their own children? You say you want me in your life, but that is entirely conditional. You want me to return to the WTBS so you can ?have me back in your life?, those are conditions I?m not willing to accept. I am not stopping you from having a relationship with me, all I am doing is living my life, which you and your WTBS cannot accept, so you are making the choice to keep me out of your life. No, it?s not easy knowing that my parents cannot accept that I was pushed into a ritual before I was old enough to understand the consequences of my actions. You have told anyone that will listen how we don?t have a relationship with you because you chose to leave a religion. You make it sound so simple. Your statements have made an impact on our worldly relatives. Some have now taken the steps to no longer communicate with us and call us bad Christians. I don?t know if that was your intention but that is the result. They won?t even listen to our side so we can tell them the whole story .Being on the opposite side of shunning based simply on the fact that you don?t believe the same things as I do is pretty bad, wouldn?t you agree? How does that medicine taste? Very bitter isn?t it? It?s strange that you have no problem with treating others this way if they don?t agree with the WTBS rules, but let someone treat you the same way you treat others and it?s a terrible thing? I wonder if you think and understand what the impact of shunning does to people now that you are on the receiving end of it? Do you not understand the depth of pain and despair it can cause when the only reason for doing such a thing is having a differing viewpoint? Do you not grasp the pain you and your organization cause others when you do this sort of thing, or is it only wrong when you are on the receiving end? I take no responsibility for how others treat you when all I have done is be honest with them. Perhaps you should think about that fact, before trying to blame me for the way others react to your behavior. When I first noticed you falling away from the truth it was a very painful sight to watch. It started with missing meetings because of your new job. You distanced yourself away from the friends. We would try and help you spiritually and you would act resentful. We tried so hard to help you and were rejected by you time and time again.When I first started questioning the WTBS version of the ?truth? did you support me and my efforts? It is a very devastating thing to know that the people who gave birth to you will willingly ignore your thoughts and questions and feelings because they are brainwashed into believing that to question or disagree is bad. Instead of being supportive or understanding of the changes I was going through, you simply acted on behalf of the organization, and tried to convince me how wrong I was. Is it any wonder I distanced myself from that situation? I tried so hard to do what I thought was right for me, and you simply rejected that time and time again.
My job is what allows me to live in this world and until Jehovah sends me a weekly paycheck, it?s how I have to get by in this world, and if working caused me to miss meetings, then I can?t help that. Should I have quit my job in order to attend meetings? Should I rely on the welfare system to support me all because of a religious meeting interfered with my job? I tried so hard to get you to understand me and my thoughts but you dismissed me and rejected my need to be who I am because you could not accept that I am not you, and I do not believe like you do. Instead of understanding that we all have to find our own path to the truth, you tried to force yours upon me. You gave no consideration for our feelings. You would not even acknowledge our concerns. You were too busy building a worldly life for yourself to care about the family that has been there for you your whole life up until that point. You told us nothing and would get mad when we would ask you questions about what you were up too. You acted like it was the end of the world when we would ask you to come to Kingdom Hall.You gave no consideration to my feelings, as you have shown that with your remarks about my feelings about my baptism. You don?t even acknowledge my concerns except to say you disagree, and believe yourselves to be right while I am wrong. I am building my own life, and you have yours. I have a right to live my own life, just as you have had the right to live yours. You refused to acknowledge my own feelings and the requests that you do not push your beliefs onto me, instead you continue to push and push until my anger is raised, then you blame me for being angry. You refuse to respect my feelings and thoughts, demanding only that I respect yours.When I saw you for the first time with your boyfriend I could tell right away that you had fallen in love with him. I also knew that you were fornicating with him. There was something different about the way you carried yourself that I could just tell. You had become a woman without being married. I finally accepted the fact that it would only be a matter of time when you would be disfellowshipped.You knew I was in love, and maybe I shouldn't have been having sex outside of marriage, but that didn?t matter to you because it wasn?t my happiness that was a concern for you, it was only the rules of the WTBS that matter. I am a woman married or not. I was born a female and sexual activities do not make me into a woman. Growth does that. I am glad you acknowledged that my love for my boyfriend was against the rules of your organization. It shows that my feelings are less important than those of the WTBS. What a shame it is that my parents, the ones who gave me life, cared less for my own happiness than they did with following the rules of an organization. Instead of being understanding and compassionate you were set on enforcing a set or religious rules onto me, without thought of how force can easily lead to rebellion, and rather than use genuine care to help me, you simply 'went by the book', with no thought or care as to how I might react, good or bad, it simply was 'the way it has to be'. I can only hope that I treat my own children with more love and compassion than you have shown me. I remember when the elders asked you if you were fornicating you lied about it. You flat out lied, looked in their eyes and lied without a second thought. I knew you were lying but I kept my thoughts to myself. I think I might have died if you threatened me with a lawsuit for slander. To see you so hostile I did not know what you were capable of. Perhaps the elders should not get their sexual satisfaction from asking personal questions of private matters that do not concern them; the people wouldn?t have to lie in order to maintain a sense of privacy. When the elders decide to make public their views on what someone may or may not have done, then they open themselves up to liability. Perhaps if the elders kept their noses out of the personal issues of people, they would not provoke hostility towards themselves. Then that inevitable day came that we find out you were pregnant and then you getting disfellowshipped. You were as defiant as ever.
I am very grateful that you allow us contact with your daughter but you have those conditions attached. Again you ask us not to share our beliefs with our grandchild.Yes, defiant that I would and could live knowing that I would not have to be treated as a monster, someone to be shunned for something as simple as getting pregnant. Perhaps sexual relations outside of marriage wasn't the best choice, but as you say it was "inevitable", why? because you kept or tried to repress the most basic of human emotions and functions? People make mistakes, but I don't regret my child and I don't think of her as a mistake either.
You should be grateful that I allow you to have contact with your granddaughter, considering the way you have treated me, I would think it?s very generous of me to allow you to spend time with her and overcome my fears you will contaminate her with your beliefs and treat her as badly as you have treated me. I have every right to bring up my child as I see fit, and in the manner I feel is best for her. You will respect that if you wish to have ANY kind of relationship with my children. I find it humorous that you complain of the conditions I attach to your visitation with your granddaughter, when you yourself are guilty of conditional acceptance towards others. Ironic isn't it?You have caused us more pain than anyone else ever. Don?t think that you are the only one in pain. There is plenty to go around. I hope you think about this letter and realize that you played a major role in all of this and the fallout. Think about it.You have hurt me deeper and in more ways than I can express. My own parents who gave me life, can?t accept me for who I am, for not believing as they do, for simply wanting to live my own life, rather than allowing them to live my life for me. The pain of that knowledge is something that will never leave me. The anguish you have caused by allowing an organization to rule your thoughts, rather than simply give your unconditional love to me, will haunt me all the rest of my days.
I hope you realize what a major role you have played in the emotional scars I carry with me, knowing that my own parents care more for a group of religious people and their rules (not Jehovah's rules) over me, their own flesh and blood child. Think about your contribution to my despair, think about your contribution to my believing the way I do because you could not accept that I was not you, not your clone, but a thinking, feeling person who could not count on the support of my own parents when I needed it the most, instead you gave me trite and tired repetitious lines from an organization, rather than love, compassion and understanding. I can be thankful though that my own daughter will not have to endure such parenting or lack thereof, for my child has my unconditional love, unlike yours which is conditional upon my acceptance of the WTBS rules.
Think about that.
unbeliever

But to continue to be intolerant in return is not the answer.

I assume by that you mean her telling them not to discuss religion. Since she was raised a dub she knows the beliefs so there is no reason for them to preach to her. All that is left is them trying to get her to go back to the borg. Why would she want to subject herself to that when there are a million other things they could talk about?
Believe what you want but it has been my experience that love and patience is a better way to deal with this than perpetuating misunderstanding and intolerance.
Love and patience can quickly turn into being a doormat. What you call intolerance I call standing up for yourself. If she did not stand up for herself and tell them her boundaries they would be riding rough shot all over her.
Robdar

Love and patience can quickly turn into being a doormat. What you call intolerance I call standing up for yourself. If she did not stand up for herself and tell them her boundaries they would be riding rough shot all over her.

Yes, I agree, it could turn into a doormat situation. But then again, any conflict may do the same.
There is a difference in being self assured and tolerant in your beliefs and being a pushover. Of course we all deal with conflict in different ways. It is relatively easy to maintain control over a situation without losing your temper. Not to say that sometimes losing your temper isn't good.
Either way, it takes two to fight. Both sides could have done better. However, it is all a learning process.
Robyn
AlanF

This letter is a sad example of the emotional manipulation and blackmail practiced by the JWs. I know how it is to deal with this crap, having received enough such letters from my own parents. The acronym FOG is perfectly appropriate.
The mother laments:
"Woe is me! We have to shun you and it's your fault! You've made it so hard for us! We're so sad that you've made us shun you! We're so sad that you won't let us see our grandchildren just because we shun you!"
The idea that a child under the age of 18, raised as a JW and subject to the usual deceptive brainwashing, ought to be held to baptismal vows made in ignorance is simply stupid. If that same child wanted to get married, the JW parents would do a great deal to discourage it until the child reached maturity. The double standard is breathtaking.
The manipulativeness is particularly evident in what the mother says here:
"You have told anyone that will listen how we don?t have a relationship with you because you chose to leave a religion."
I seriously doubt that any young woman bright enough to deal as intelligently with prying elders as she did would make such a claim without carefully explaining what shunning is all about. The mother has turned cause and effect on its head. The reason there's no relationship is not because the woman left the JW cult, but because the JW cult disfellowshipped her and requires the parents to shun her. The JW cult chose to make this rule, and the elders chose to DF the woman, and the parents choose to shun their daughter. The daughter simply left a cult she knew to be destructive and manipulative.
Next comes another lament:
"You make it sound so simple."
It is simple: don't shun, and you won't get shunned in return. You might even get to see your grandkids.
I just love this part:
"Your statements have made an impact on our worldly relatives. Some have now taken the steps to no longer communicate with us and call us bad Christians."
Surprise, surprise, surprise! Good for the relatives! Any claimed Christian who would shun a child because cult leaders told him to is a bad Christian, and a wicked person.
Again the double standards are breathtaking. No problem with the parents shunning the daughter, but they bitterly complain when they're shunned in return. But turn about is fair play.
"They won?t even listen to our side so we can tell them the whole story."
Posh! What this really means is that, no matter how they've tried, the parents can't convince the relatives to buy into the JW-cult mentality that it's ok to shun your kids when the cult tells you to. What JWs want is approval from their relatives, to have the relatives say, "it's ok to shun your kids" -- even though they're not willing to give their relatives the same leeway with their beliefs. Same old double standards.
"I don?t think you have heard our side"
Posh again! I'm sure that this bright young woman has heard plenty from "our side".
"or even thought of the pain that you have caused us"
Once again we see that manipulative inversion of cause and effect. The pain is due to the influence of the cult -- not because the daughter wouldn't continue buying into it. They cause their own pain. If they simply allowed that others have a right to believe and act as they please, they wouldn't have this pain.
This business of "you've caused us such pain!" is just another bit of manipulation by inducing guilt. Here's another bit of it:
"We tried so hard to help you and were rejected by you time and time again."
Such manipulation is transparent. Intelligent, independent people want no part of it.
". . . threatening the elders with a lawsuit for invasion of privacy."
A damned smart young woman!
Yet more inducing of guilt:
"You gave no consideration for our feelings. You would not even acknowledge our concerns. You were too busy building a worldly life for yourself to care about the family that has been there for you your whole life up until that point."
As if anyone should live their lives simply to please others. How about the "others" being open enough to allow that their choices in life are not necessarily right for everyone else? Of course, JWs are trained to be self-righteous and judgmental.
"You told us nothing and would get mad when we would ask you questions about what you were up too."
Of course! Why would any young woman in her right mind want to be disfellowshipped and shunned any sooner than is necessary? This attitude is again a manifestation of JWs' training that everyone should allow them to act however they please toward others, with no consequences. The mother even admits this:
"I know you said that we would not have left you in peace and we would not have respected your decision but I don?t think that would have been the case."
The fact that no JW, including the parents, respected the daughter's decision, is proved by the fact that she was disfellowshipped and is now shunned.
"I remember you telling us that you did not want to discuss religion and that we could talk about anything but that. You told us this in our own home."
What's wrong with any of that? Civilized people often agree to disagree in order to get along. Just because you're in your own home doesn't give you the right to run roughshod over peoples' sensitivities.
Take smoking cigars, for example. You may enjoy a smoke in your own home, and you have every right to enjoy it there. But non-smoking visitors have an equal right not to enter your home if you insist on smoking. Again, allowing for this is just a simple question of showing respect for others.
"You know that our life revolves around Jehovah and his organization."
Try this on for size: "You know that our life revolves around smoking cigars, so why can't you put up with it even if it makes you sick?"
"So to cut to the chase you told us that if we wanted to be in your company we could not discuss Jehovah with you or ask you questions about your worldly life. Do you know how much you were asking of us when you demanded that?"
How about this: "So to cut to the chase, you told us that if we wanted to be in your company, we could not smoke cigars in your presence or pry into your private life. Do you know how much you were asking of us when you demanded that?"
Put in such terms, even JWs should be able to see how stupid this bit of manipulation is. As is the following:
"Again you were only thinking of yourself."
Next we have a typical appeal to the guilt due to lying, even though it's in self defense:
"I remember when the elders asked you if you were fornicating you lied about it. You flat out lied, looked in their eyes and lied without a second thought. I knew you were lying but I kept my thoughts to myself."
Think about the situation here: a young girl is threatened with disfellowshipping and shunning, which would cause untold hardship for her, whether in high school or afterwards. Pressure would be brought to bear on the parents by elders to force her out of the house as soon as possible. With all family and friends shunning her, she'd have no support system. She might end up on the street -- plenty have. A girl would be stupid to allow herself to be put in such a situation.
"I think I might have died if you threatened me with a lawsuit for slander. To see you so hostile I did not know what you were capable of."
Anyone pushed into a corner is going to fight. Not too hard to understand.
"I am very grateful that you allow us contact with your daughter but you have those conditions attached. Again you ask us not to share our beliefs with our grandchild."
How about this: "Why won't you let us smoke cigars in front of our grandchild? Why do you attach conditions to our seeing him?"
Finally back to the "woe is me!" guilt trip:
"You have caused us more pain than anyone else ever. Don?t think that you are the only one in pain. There is plenty to go around. I hope you think about this letter and realize that you played a major role in all of this and the fallout. Think about it."
I can only applaud this young woman for standing up to abusive manipulation by cultist family members. Let them suffer for their self-indulgent fantasies. They have a good deal of freedom to choose how they want to treat their daughter, but they must accept the consequences of emotionally abusing her.
If every abused former JW stood up to abuse like this, there would be far less of it in the long run. Remember, it's all about control with them.
AlanF
LittleToe

What I continually find ironic is that parents will often (albeit sometimes begrudgingly) continue having relations with unbaptised children who are doing "far worse" things that their DF'ed siblings.
The only difference being? They allegedly "dedicated" themselves at an early age...
..when the age thing is brought up in their defense, it's inadmissable "just because".
Definitely "check your brain in at the door" material.
steve2

Either way, it takes two to fight. Both sides could have done better. However, it is all a learning process.

Robyn has made some very good comments regarding the ways in which people "contribute" to interpersonal exchanges. In the ideal situation, we would expect older adults to model helpful ways of communicating to their children. Preferably, it'd be better to communicate without resorting to emotional blackmail. As difficult as this situation is, there is nothing stopping the "picked on" party thinking in a more rational manner about how to model to her own mother a healthier way of communicating. Now that is an act of empowerment!
No, it doesn't mean being a doormat or agreeing to everything; what it does mean is finding more helpful ways of communicating and becomming aware that any exchange has contributors. The language of contribution is far more likely to lead to a breakthrough than the language of blame.
Yes, the JW mother is responding in a very unhelpful and manipulative manner; this is pretty much typical JW talk - no surprises there.
Equally, the daughter, who is a non-witness, is presumably "freer" to think outside the square and to learn to express her feelings and needs in a less confrontation, blame-oriented manner, and thus model healthier communication.
I highly recommend the book by Stone and others entitled Difficult Conversations . It has some absolutely wonderful ways of responding to perceived or actual manipulation. Read and be startled by the exten to which all of us actively contribute to our daily interchanges with others.

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