Lay off Brummie!! He my friend!!!
Lay off Brummie!! He my friend!!!
Sabrina, I have no problem with how you feel. I'm simply not sure you understand why Penton, Jonnson, Rudd P. and R. Franz do NOT feel comfortable here. It is difficult to discuss religion or the Bible at JWD without auto/reactions from people legitimately injured by the WT. ANY expression of faith or belief is often attacked by well meaning, but somewhat cynical posters. As HillaryStep said above:
When what is perceived as a WTS attitude is expressed by an XJW, then duck for cover.
If you check the thread Leolaia reference on a prior page you will see how Penton was received last time. There are a few believers who continue to post here but they are often treated as crackpots or JW trolls. It takes the right kind of person to take that treatment and I applaud them. As to Penton, although retired, he has much on his table. He just published his new book and is already researching another he is co-authoring. Perhaps that is time best spent for the benefit of the XJW community as a whole. We are mostly a cynical, rational bunch of survivors here. Faith is very difficult to defended rationally in a debate. What you are hoping for has been tried but the environment here is not yet, and perhaps never will be, suited to discussions of spirituality. Its a good thread, Green. Don't feel bad about it. Penton is not a petty person who would take offense at anything you said. I just doubt he is inclined to participate where he has to justify his life discussions and religious beliefs Take care, Steve. edited to add a "NOT"
I just doubt he is inclined to participate where he has to justify his life discussions and religious beliefs
Okay, thanks for your response.
Perhaps the biggest problem is not what but how you believe.
Exclusively (either I or s/he is right) or inclusively (both I and s/he may really be right from our respective standpoints)?
It depends, of course, on the measure of subjectivity your notion of "truth" is able to take into account.
Debates between exclusive believers (in anything, including scientific theories) are usually tough, challenging and stimulating.
Conversations between inclusive believers are refreshingly useless.
A discussion board, by definition, gathers both types. It's sometimes useful and often frustrating. Just like real life, for it is a part of real life (well, provided you have an inclusive view of real life...)
Perhaps you could encourage him to lurk occasionally and send PMs to those he believes he might be able to manage a productive discussion with. Just a thought.
Not a lot of wisdom or respect shown, is there? To each other; to active JW's, to inactive ones; to total disbelievers; to any and all others.
After reading most all posts this last 6 months, I can only say as an active witness these past 50 odd years that I personally am sorry for any hurt caused by those in authority (as I used to be) in the organization, and it is my firm belief that there is a Creator, there is His Son Jesus Christ; there is a work to do by the 'one lord, one faith, one baptism' association of brothers in all the world; and that individuals highlighted in this particular thread do not bring the sun up no more than any of us. Does it not behoove all of us to keep our place, be kind and courteous and respectful to all, hate the wrong not the wrongdoer, and give some credit where it is due?
No doubt difficult if we have been disciplined/corrected when we fail as humans to live up to what we have publicly stated we are going to do as in our baptism, and we rebel/reject/get hurt etc, or if we believe we have been deceived by those we have trusted.
Please to all who are still reading this thread, please be kinder and less abrasive to each other.
To all others, no matter what, the Christ said we should love not just our friends, but love our enemies. And that includes you, me, Jim, Ray etc, none of us bring the sun up. Nor do any of us know the total circumstances behind the sins committed against us. Jesus Christ was right, whether you read his words from the KJ, NWT, NE,AS etc etc.
Just my personal beliefs, I have had enough time and experience with those in responsible positions in the truth to know how much most, if not all, are really trying hard to do the right thing. You nor I are appointed as anyone else's Judge.
Geoff, the problem with your comment that all these people are trying to do the right thing, is that it's evident that, whatever their motives, they've completely messed things up, to the detriment of their followers. And because these people actively shun and cause others to shun those they disagree with, I say without hesitation that their motives are vile.
I fail to see the validity of your post. Like several others, I can say that I know Jim Penton personally, and consider him a friend. He and I debated recently at the NW Conference in Washington state. The debate was respectful and I learn a lot from him ... as I always do.
Jim Penton is a historian and retired university professor. He has written works on behalf of Jehovah's Witnesses. He has also written critical works that fairly and accuarately deal with the history of the Watchtower Society. Specifically, his book Apocalypse Delayed was among the primnary books that helped me understand the JWs and make my decision to leave the organization.
He has done a great deal to help many people. Many here know that Jim Penton posts on Channel C. If anyone wants to interact with him, go to Channel C, read his posts, and then submit viewer questions. http://www.channelc.org/cgi-bin/eboard30/index.cgi Anyone can apply for a screen account there: How Do I Register to Post On Channel C? But, their acceptance is at the discretion and pleasure of the board owner.
Certainly, Jim Penton is available, and any arguement to the contrary is baseless.