An Apology Regarding "The Voice"...

by AGuest 109 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • AGuest

    May you have peace!

    I did not look up the information, but was directed to it... and once read it... asked for clarification of what in it was true. Personally, I like Plato (and, most certainly, Socrates), because much of what they believed and expressed is what I believe and try to express. True, we don't do it in quite the same manner... and true... mine is not considered "philosophy," in the modern sense, but my understanding is that their's was not intended to be either, but simply revelations of truth that they received FROM the Truth... whether folks hear... or refrain. Of course, there will be dissenters with what I've just stated, but... ah, well.

    Peace to you... and hope this answers your question.

    Your servant and a slave of Christ,


  • AGuest

    I haven't forgotten (peace to you!). Just went to bed, is all (it was around 11pm when I saw it!)

    Now, then...

    It just doesnt make sense that pagans in effect made a sacrifice without even knowing it.

    First, they weren't "pagans". A pagan is someone who worships the physical earth as "mother"... and substitute fairies... for angels. The Jews believed themselves to be worshipping JAH... and believed in spirit beings from the spirit realm vs. the earth.

    Okay, now that we've cleared that up:

    It would definitely make sense that such would occur without their knowing it because such was a human sacrifice, something THEY never considered themselves as doing, as CAPABLE of doing... for human sacrifices were things done by the nations.

    Although I would suppose if you (Shelby) and I were there, lets say you were James and I were John were the ones to make the sacrifice of Jesus to Jehovah, I would dare say you and I would be unable to slit Jesus throat and burn his body up as a sacrifice to Jehovah

    I don't recall my Lord's throat being slit. His side pierced, yes... but I believe his throat remained intact. Nor was he burned (they wouldn't have done such a thing anyway, as burning humans was considered something "detestable" to JAH). But my Lord's sacrifice was not in the MANNER of animal sacrifices... in ANY way... so that it was a "much better" offering.

    but strange as it may seem Jehovah not only wanted Jesus to be sacrificed but went further in allowing him to be sacrificed in a far more grotesque and inhumane manner.

    While JAH did allow it, dear one... He didn't WANT it: Israel NEEDED is... and JAH PROVIDED it... and my Lord OFFERED himself... willingly.

    The beheadings over in Iraq carried on by barbarians pale in comparison to what Jehovah allowed to happen to his son Jesus.

    Since I don't want to be cyber-lynched, I'll refrain from commenting on the "barbarism" of Iraqi beheadings except to say... beheading... be-bombing... both take lives. The former of innocent adult men, the latter of innocent adult men... and women... and children. I am amazed at the outcry over the loss of "American" lives... innocent or those who chose to "live by the sword"... and obvious apathy over the loss of Iraqi lives... innocent... or those who chose to "live by the sword." I cannot say I understand how the innocent men, women and children who are killed daily... whether by Iraqi suicide bombs... or American missiles... meets the need to replace Sadam Hussein's "axis of evil." But... I digress...

    If you and I could not allow ourselves to kill an innocent human to atone for our sins how is it that Jehovah allowed it and in effect condoned it?

    "We"... are killing innocents lives for MUCH less these days, are we not? Are "we" not killing innocents lives because "we" have decided that a country's ancient form of government is detrimental to "us" because "we" believe that democracy is a much better form of government so that "we" are willing to KILL whomever "we" feel "we" need to in order to establish it (although the TRUTH is that "we" really want to protect "our" access to crude oil?) Tell me, dear Toreador... how can "we"... allow that?

    Could you kill one of your kids for the sins another one of your kids committed? This just doesnt mesh with a God of love.

    Let's see: if I had, say, 100 children... okay, 1,000,000... and in order to save 99 of them... okay, 999,999... I had to sacrifice... ummmm... ONE... I think I would say, yes... particularly if the one himself... offered himself... willingly. And I would love that one... much more than the others for doing so... so that if he were ever reestablished to me... all that I have... and all that my other 99 children would have had... would be his. So, I guess my answer is... yes.

    But, don't "we" do it all the time... "sacrifice" our children for what "we" believe in? I think their are mothers and fathers in this world that would answer yes, and say that they've sacrificed their children... for much less.

    The way that Jesus died was just pure barbaric and inhumane torture to death.

    Indeed, it was. And yet, it also has the value to atone... mercifully... even for those who caused it.

    I say a better way would have been for Jesus to have lived to a ripe old age and then he could have sacrificed himself by his own way of choosing and then for God to have taken him back to heaven.

    Well, perhaps you should take that up with his Father; you have every right to do so (Psalm 4:4). Unfortunately, taking it up with me is... well... moot. I neither made the decision nor can do anything about your disapproval of it.

    PS. I am still thinking about all those millions of poor animals sacrificed to death in the 4000 plus years prior to Jesus to temporarily atone for their ancestors, Adam and Eve, eating some forbidden fruit.

    But why? I am sure that saying, "Let it go," won't suffice, so I'll say... is it not better to have given one's life in honor of the Most High God... than for some other frivolity (i.e., hideous disease that allowed worms to painfully eat away at your carcass, so that once you're no longer able to move, the birds come and pluck out your eyeballs while your breath still exists in you?). Or no, perhaps you feel it is better for animals to sacrifice their lives for HUMANS... to keep THEM alive... including the barbarians you mentioned earlier...

    Earthling man... puny gnats that we are... always thinking our thoughts are "higher" than God's and that we know His mind so that we can check His hand...

    I bid you peace, dear Toreador.

    I am your servant, and a slave of Christ,


  • AGuest

    dearest Czar (the greatest of love and peace to you!), for your comment is accurate:

    "To show you how some materialists worship the words of men, and then promptly remake those men into something that is like themselves."

    That you were able to discern it, makes my heart rejoice!!

    But Shelby, I do have one issue with you - why the overuse of the ellipsis? Are you editing your comments like the WT did?

    LOLOL! No, dear one. I know that in PROPER grammar/punctuation, the ellipsis is used to denote omitted text. For me, however... it signifies extended pause. I tend to write in prose... as I think and hear. So, when you see and ellipsis in my post... just take a bit of a breath... and then read on.

    But you knew that, too, didn't 'cha?

    Again, peace to you!

    Your servant and a slave of Christ,


  • Mulan
    Let's see: if I had, say, 100 children... okay, 1,000,000... and in order to save 99 of them... okay, 999,999... I had to sacrifice... ummmm... ONE... I think I would say, yes... particularly if the one himself... offered himself... willingly.

    God had one "only begotten" son. A more accurate analogy would be if you had ONE biological son, and 1,000 or 1,000,000 adopted children and had to sacrifice the ONE biological child.

    Could you do that?

  • AGuest

    May you all have peace!

    I have tried to respond to most, if not all of you, and hopefully will respond to all before this thread is "done." Unfortunately, I am behind in my studies as a result of posting and so need to spend most of today catching up (I'm am SO not prepared for this morning's class - yikes!). But JAH always helps me when I put Him first, so I won't be anxious over it too much. Before I leave today, however, there is one post that I wish to respond to... need to respond to. Well, not respond, but comment on.

    I have been coming to for close to three years now, and most who read this thread are familiar with my mission. Some of you, however, are quite new, meaning having arrived in the last few months. So, you don't know me very well. For those who've been here some time, most, like me, migrated from another forum, H2O, which was, for a while, quite a "nice" place to visit. It changed, though, as folks became more and more vicious, such that eventually I had to ask the forum director to assist me, which did not happen. The "jabs" became much worse... and eventually I was directed to tell the Administrator that his forum would become defunct. Of course, he did not believe that... no one did... but JAH does not lie. I was as hurt as everyone else when it came to pass... particularly because it did not have to be so. All that was needed was a bit of... well... compassion... and tolerance. It was not to be found there, however, in any substantial amount.

    But I did meet some folks there that even today I have love and respect for, who once treated me quite unkindly, but in their attempt to at least know what it was... or rather WHO it was... they were opposing... took the initiative to meet me personally and get to know me. One of those folks... was my dear Daddy-O... known to you all as "Farkel."

    I have read several threads on this forum and know that people's opinion of Fark run the gamut: some praise him, searching for his postings like lost children trying to make some sense of the illogical. And being the logical person that DC is, they find a great deal of it in his writings. Others abhor him as arrogant, self-serving, high-minded... a seeker of devotees to his intellect. Most, however, just see him as the "regular" guy that he is... a bit brilliant, a bit cynical, sarcastic yet witty... and certainly capable of expressing things in a way most cannot.

    I see him... as my brother... in Christ. And DC is well aware of this. For behind all of the gruff exterior, I have come to know a very soft candy center... a gentleness that is not found in many these days... a love and tolerance that most cannot even begin to muster.

    DC and I have been friends for more than 3 years, now: have met and shared meals... have helped each other out when it was needed... in several ways. And the reason is... love. Not a false kind where folks put on airs in front of others when they don't want to admit their affection for another because that would be unpopular and risk one's being thought unstable... but the kind that's born of truth... and courage... and says "I don't have to understand you to love you."

    Doug is a GREAT guy, a kind friend... a good brother. I am not ashamed of him... and he is not ashamed of me. He is one of the most intelligent people I know... which is WHY he can accept me as I am. And he is a musical GENIUS (he once played for me, from a piece of sheet music that had SO many notes on it, you almost couldn't see the white pages for all of the black dots! It was AWESOME!!!).

    And it is because of his love and acceptance of me... AS I AM... that I know him to be my brother... for our philial love for one another does not stop due to trespass on our differences... but SURPASSES those differences... always. It does not matter that he is male and I female... he white and me black... he an intellect and me a fool... he a genius and me a good-for-nothing-slave: we "lord" nothing over each other... but make sure that if and when necessary... we are THERE for one another. Even if "there" means standing up in front of a forum of ridiculers and saying, "Hey, wait a minute... you really don't know this person"... at risk of being ridiculed also. Such loyalty is rare. But it with the loyal... that my Lord and my Father will BE loyal.

    Doug... my brother... my love for you will never fail.

    YOUR servant, sister... and friend,


    P.S. Czar... I love you, too, man!!!

  • toreador

    Dear Shelby,

    I don't recall my Lord's throat being slit. His side pierced, yes... but I believe his throat remained intact. Nor was he burned (they wouldn't have done such a thing anyway, as burning humans was considered something "detestable" to JAH). But my Lord's sacrifice was not in the MANNER of animal sacrifices... in ANY way... so that it was a "much better" offering.

    Just a quick note,

    You totally missed my point, probably because I dont write as well as I would like. My point was the "way" animals were sacrificed "was" (sic) as I mentioned. If Jesus were to have been sacrificed the way Jehovah had the animals sacrificed it would have been as I described it; his throat slit and then his body burned on the altar by his disciples, i.e. his followers. This way although gruesome, it would have been far better than the treatment and way of death he got. The proper way to do it had we lived back then was for you and I, if we were James and John, was to do the deed as I described; slit his throat and burn his body on the altar as a sacrifice for our sins. I dont believe I could have done that, could you??? God had him tortured and maimed by people who didnt even believe in him, does Gods way seem more reasonable? Yet this is what God exacted from him. I find it hard to reconcile a God who would do such a thing. This is the same God who wanted the killing and sacrificing of millions of animals up to that point as well to atone for the original sin they did not commit.

    If Satan had little satans did someone have to die as a ransom for the sins their father/satan made as well so they could be reconciled to God?

    Yours truly,


  • nowisee

    (dc may indeed be wonderful, but sometimes he should choose his responses with a bit more care. whenever i see him i remember being cut to the core by his remarks to me, when i was a very new poster, and new to the computer. ironically it all dealt with you.

    anyway, whenever i see you i read your comments with interest. i am curious if there is anyone else on this board who hears messages the way you do. can anyone else here corroborate first hand the things you say?

    best wishes, nowisee

  • bebu

    Dear AGuest,

    I do not find your writings difficult. Although, like Czar, if there's an overabundance of ellipses I feel like I've been running... and panting... ... ... ... The effect reminds me of Professer Trelawny in Harry Potter books.

    I think you are right about Plato. The real issue with God has never been "correct doctrine" so much as embracing love, justice, humility, etc. I firmly believe such will see Christ and smile with glad recognition when they die.

    The fruits of the spirit are not self-righteousness, disdain, indifference, bitterness, or anger; as you said, they are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, faithfulness, and self-control. There is unity available to everyone in Christ because of these. Embraced unity, not enforced. And these attributes include grace toward those who disagree (patience is given toward those who upset us, for example).

    I am sure that we could still "argue" about many things, even particular doctrinal points. But at heart, I see no problem with what you have written. As far as I can tell, it is the heart of the gospel. And you have not been hateful, arrogant, slanderous or impatient, as some of charged.

    So, "peace to you, Shelmeister!" I don't usually write like that, but for you, it works... ... ...


  • bebu

    Hi nowisee!

    I think about you often... and the fact that I haven't written to you as promised.

    Hope you are well!


  • franklin J
    franklin J

    what are you smoking.....?

    and can we all have some?

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