An Apology Regarding "The Voice"...

by AGuest 109 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

AGuest

where I am "sent," dear 'Ball. And apparently, it was "not to a people ignorant or dull of tongue," but to Israel... in a place... among many places... where he may be "found" today.
By that, I mean Abraham's seed... whether he is a believer... or not. The seed was scattered to the four winds, dear one, after the death of my Lord's flesh... so that it is not just in the geographical state of Israel... nor is it limited to the pure (or minimally-diluted) blood line of the Jews. Through Israel (Jacob), who had 12 sons, Abraham's seed is "as the grains of sand" and can be found in every nation, tribe, tongue and people... as well as in any level of belief, including none.
Be all of that as it may, God has not forgotten Israel... not one of us... and will continue to call them to return to him, through Christ. Thus, the Spirit and the Bride KEEP saying... to all who are thirsting and wishing... and hearing:
"Come! Take 'life's water'... free!"
For the Door (John 10:7, 8; 14:6) into the Ark [of the Covenant]... has not yet been shut.
I bid you peace.
A slave of Christ,
SJ
Mulan

And if I had to sacrifice that one biological child... for the good of all of the adopted children... and such child went WILLINGLY... that would only make me PROUDER... make me KNOW... that THAT one... TRULY was my biological child.

As a Jehovah's witness, this whole concept was extremely troubling to me. The sacrifice Abraham was asked to make and then Jesus, I'm sorry................it all just reads like a Fairy Tale to me, and not a very good one. It is sick, sick, sick.
As my husband would say, regarding things difficult to believe "I am going to have to call BULLSHIT on this one".
Okay, I am done reading and responding to this thread, so say what you want, Shelby, I am not reading it. Best to ignore this post.
nowisee

re comments about dc above....
i will save you the trouble of looking at the thread and tell you that what i said within my post was that you had an amazing mind, meaning it in the most positive way.
it was misconstrued as being negative and essentially i was called clueless and the entirety of my post idiotic. i have forgiven him; i understand the principle of the rafter and the speck, but nevertheless i am wary as i can still recall and feel the hurt i felt then -- it wasn't pleasant! i think it is amusing that you also seem to have assumed that i must have said something negative about you, which i did not. it must feel good to know your friend will defend you against real and perceived foes!
anyway, thank you for your reply to me, and the obvious care you always take in your responses.
i guess i will just keep reading.
best wishes again, nowisee
AGuest

Again, peace to you!
i think it is amusing that you also seem to have assumed that i must have said something negative about you, which i did not. it must feel good to know your friend will defend you against real and perceived foes!
Oh, no no no no no no... I knew exactly what you were speaking about, and yes, I've seen DC get pretty nasty. Have reaped it, myself and I am sorry that you took some of it from him, especially for me and I wholeheartedly THANK YOU for doing so! But I forgave him long ago, because he subsequently PROVED to me that that really wasn't him... but his... ummm... "representative." HE... is really a very sweet man... and good friend.
If I confused, I sincerely apologize!
Your servant and a slave of Christ,
SJ
minimus

FRANKLIN J, you're one funny dude!
toreador

Peace to you!
You totally missed my point

Perhaps, but if so it was not due to your writing: you write just fine!. So, let's try again, shall we?
My point was the "way" animals were sacrificed "was" (sic) as I mentioned.
Yes, I got that. And my point was that my Lord was not sacrificed in the "way" animals were... for a reason. Maybe it was me who wasn't very clear...
If Jesus were to have been sacrificed the way Jehovah had the animals sacrificed it would have been as I described it; his throat slit and then his body burned on the altar by his disciples, i.e. his followers.

Yes. IF...
This way although gruesome, it would have been far better than the treatment and way of death he got.

YES!!! It would have been FAR more merciful!! Yes??! That was the point, dear Tor... that my Lord wasn't even afforded the mercy shown mere beasts... by his fellow humans and "spiritual" brothers (or so they would have labeled themselves). THAT's... the point! Yes, I agree it would have been FAR more merciful! And HOW is God full of mercy again. I see NO mercy in the way it was carried out. The most merciful way would have been for Jesus followers to have slit his throat and burned his body on the alter and you yourself admitted that we could NOT do this. How can God is a better question?
The proper way to do it had we lived back then was for you and I, if we were James and John, was to do the deed as I described; slit his throat and burn his body on the altar as a sacrifice for our sins. I dont believe I could have done that, could you???

Of COURSE not! And that is the very reason WHY the disciples weren't called TO do it. It was done... from start to finish (meaning, including his trumped up trial)... by those who WOULD commit an unmerciful act, even on a fellow human being... even on the Son of God.
God had him tortured and maimed by people who didnt even believe in him,

NO! God... did NOT have him tortured and maimed! God... let him be handed OVER to a tortuous and maimful people in that He didn't interfere. God knew what was in the heart of mankind, just as Socrates knew what was in the heart of those who sentenced/executed him. They could AT ANY TIME... have said, "Uh-uh, no, not me... I ain't gonna have NO parts in this... it's wrong... totally wrong... evil." But did they? Nope. They actually got some kind of sick joy out of it... vowing that they even wanted the RESPONSIBILITY for it to come upon their own children. (Shaking head...)
does Gods way seem more reasonable?

To let a blood thirsty group of hypocrites commit such a heinous and unmerciful act against His one Son... for the sake of His others... and all... including those who committed the act? I have to say, dear Toreador... if that's what it TOOK... then yes... the "way"... was reasonable.
Yet this is what God exacted from him.

Okay, here is where I must expound to you the way of the Truth "more accurately:" the price was not exacted by God - it was exacted... by Death! Death... was/is the one who is never satisfied! Adam made a deal... on behalf of ALL of his offspring... and sold HIS soul... and theirs... TO Death. God... out of LOVE.. paid the ONLY "price" Death would accept: His only-begotten Son. GOD... did not hold mankind ransom; DEATH did. And God.. PAID the ransom... with the sacrifice of His Son. And Death THOUGHT he would have that Son... forever. But God did NOT leave him to Death... but gave him the "keys" to the REALM of Death... so that it could not hold him. Thus, although Death, through his high priest, the one called Satan and Devil, thought he'd cheated God, GOD... by means of HIS High Priest, my Lord and Master, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH... cheated Death! So that by means of him, not only does Death not have a hold on THAT One... but not on any who BELONG to that One. You speak of death as if it was a living breathing entity that has to satisfied. That doesnt make a lick of sense to me. According to you God was the one who set the price. God is the one who set the price. You admitted neither you nor I could have killed Jesus yet that is what God did in effect. He set the price and he is the one who allowed it to be carried through to the extent that he did. If GOd were as all powerfull as you believe him to be and if I were God I dont believe I could allow such a heinous act to be carried out against an innocent man. It is unthinkable.
Please do not let your mind and heart be misled by the FALSE propoganda of "religion"... particularly the WTBTS. They haven't a CLUE as to what took place regarding this matter, before the founding of the world... or after.
I find it hard to reconcile a God who would do such a thing.

Well, of course, if your mind and heart are clearly convinced that that is what took place. And that is the vocation of the Adversary: to sent false prophets and false christs into the earth... to TEACH you such melarkey... so as to mislead, if possible... EVEN THE CHOSEN ONES.
This is the same God who wanted the killing and sacrificing of millions of animals up to that point as well to atone for the original sin they did not commit.

The wage... or price... of sin... is death. God... MERCIFULLY... allowed animals to be substituted for human life in that regard. The animals, who also serve JAH... are even higher than us in this regard because, like my Lord... they go silently... and most often... willingly. Why? Because unlike US... but like my LORD... THEY know that this life is not all there is. THEIR minds are not simply on the things of the earth. God saves man... AND beast. How is that a merciful thing to allow to pay for something they had no part in? To say that animals go willingly to the slaughter is ridiculous. Have you ever been to a slaughter house where they slaughter beef. I dont think so! They know damn well what is going to happen to them and they are terrified!! How can you make such a statement that animals know "this life is not all there is"? Do you also talk to animals? I never seen a gazelle or another animal that willingly offered himself/herself to a lion because he wanted to get to the next life.
If Satan had little satans did someone have to die as a ransom for the sins their father/satan made as well so they could be reconciled to God?

Satan has "little" satans, for the children of the Devil are manifest in he that hates his brother. Satan's blood, however, cannot atone for the sins of his children, as HIS blood... has no value. His "children" then, need only turn to the One whose blood CAN atone for their sins... and be reconciled. It's not hard... and it's not rocket science. It's merely a matter of turning away from what is bad... hatred for one's brother and neighbor... to good... LOVE for one's brother and neighbor... and enemy. Here again you misunderstood what I wrote. I said would "someone" (not satan as he was the one that sinned) have to die for satans children in order for them to not have to die (perhaps another perfect angel)? I never spoke of satans "blood" either as I would assume he would have none. I was merely trying in my inadept way to say in order for it to match Adam sin and Jesus atoning for it, there would in "God's way of doing things" exact a perfect spirit creature to die for Satans children for them to have a chance. BTW I am not shouting at you, I just don't know the proper procedure to keep yours and my comments separate after the initial dialougue while still keeping both our comments intact.
Peace to you Shelby, Toreador
Farkel

I'm meaner than nails. That being said, I love little Shelby like she was part of my family. THAT being said, I think she has some REALLY goofy stuff going on....stuff that I cannot understand and stuff that I think is goofy, and wacky.

Now that I have my personal stuff out of the way, I wish to say that Shelby is one of the sweetest, most loving, most compassionate and most caring and nurturing people I have ever met in my entire life. When one meets a soul like her, one would be a fool to make a big deal about the goofy, wacko stuff. That stuff doesn't hurt ANYONE. Heck, last night she told me that God LIKES ME! What a bunch of crap! God HATES me based upon the evidence that I have at hand!

I'm not easily impressed. As I said, I am meaner than nails. (I don't know exactly what that means but it sounds good.)

I do know that I love little Shelby and will love her as long as there is love in our existence. As my "sistah", I mean. We have no passion for each other other than our passion for truth and our common goals to make the WTS join the human race. We share a very BIG goal in that regard.

Farkel
seven006

Doug,
Very well said. I also think Shelby is great and terminally goofy all rolled into a very nice person. What the hell else can a person ask for in a friend?
Dave
AGuest

and peace to you!
HOW is God full of mercy again. I see NO mercy in the way it was carried out.
You seen none, dear one, because there absolutely WAS no mercy... in the way that it was carried out. A completely innocent person... not just innocent in that he had committed no crime, but in that he also had committed NO SIN... was put to death in a manner worse than a mere beast. But that is the point: My Father was merciFUL, dear one... THEN... in that He let those merciLESS ones continue living... THEN... and He is merciFUL in that because they are Israel... and thus Abraham's seed... they will live AGAIN... in the FUTURE... by means of the very One they mercilLESSly killed. It is true that all of us are sinners... and that the wage (or price) of sin... is death. But THEY are WORTHY of everlasting destruction just because of the mere nature of the wickedness they displayed: he that does not show mercy, will be SHOWN mercy. And yet.... they WILL be shown mercy... because GOD... IS merciful even if they were NOT! The most merciful way would have been for Jesus followers to have slit his throat and burned his body on the alter and you yourself admitted that we could NOT do this. How can God is a better question?
God... didn't. Some of the Romans of those days... at the merciless prodding of some of the Jews of those days... did it.

You speak of death as if it was a living breathing entity that has to satisfied.
He is. And the ONLY One who can control him... was God. Until the sacrifice of my Lord. Now HE also controls Death.
That doesnt make a lick of sense to me.
Yes, I know. But that is because you don't know of the things that exist beyond the physical realm. Which is "normal" as far as many in this world is concerned. But that's kind of the thing with earthling man: he doesn't put much faith in what he cannot see... that is, unless someone "credible" states it (and I was going to say, "or puts it in a book," but that doesn't do it, either, unless the book was written by someone "credible"), credibility being doled out by others of earthling man who believe themselves to be... well... wise and knowing. So, that you do not understand something of the SPIRIT... and consider it "foolishness"... is absolutely understandable. It does not change my love for you. The fact that I am a "foolish" thing, however, might affect your love for me. It tends to work that way...
According to you God was the one who set the price.
Ummmmm, I truly do not believe I said such a thing. I believe I said that Death exacted the price... God is the one who set the price.
Please see above. You admitted neither you nor I could have killed Jesus...
True: I don't believe I could have... and you certainly don't give me the impression that you could have, either. yet that is what God did in effect.
See... it's that "in effect" thing. But there is error in thinking that way. God mercifully provided a sacrifice. And He foretold HOW the people would carry it out. He did NOT, however, want them... or direct them... to do it as they did. He simply KNEW them... before they ever came into existence HERE... and so knew how they would do it because He KNEW what they were capable of. It had to be done. He allowed it to be done... to His GREAT sorrow... and our GREAT... salvation. That you don't... or can't... understand that... is something you must take up with God... and yourself. (Psalm 4:4) However, if you go to God... THROUGH Christ (and note, I do NOT mean that old canned "in-the- name-of-your-son-Jesus-Christ-amen" schtick, but truly THROUGH him, as in asking... out of a SINCERE heart... that the Door that IS Christ be SHOWN to you... and then "OPENED" to you so that you may PASS THROUGH HIM... so as to appear before the person of God... for no one comes to the Father except through that One)... and then, when he COMES to you... and the "way" in IS opened to you... and you simply ASK... He will grant you eyes to SEE... and ears to HEAR... what is not evident to the flesh... but to the SPIRIT. In THAT way... your SPIRITUAL eyes and ears... that of the man you are ON THE INSIDE... who you REALLY are... and not who you purport to be before men... will be "excavated" and "opened." Psalm 40:6; Revelation 3:18 BUT... you must do such asking... in FAITH... NOT doubting... at all. That means NOT feeling "silly"... and NOT feeling "stupid"... and NOT feeling "embarassed"... but HUMBLED... with a PURE heart. For if you doubt... you will receive nothing at all. And no, it won't be granted to you "just because" ("Can't God just answer me? Why do I have to go through all that?" Sigh! Earthling man...) You must go through "all of that" because the LEAST you must demonstrate... is YOUR FAITH... even if it be the size of a mustard seed. For WITHOUT faith... it is impossible to please Him... and WITHOUT faith... you cannot see or hear what cannot be seen or heard with the flesh. He will not grant you entry IF YOU DON'T EVEN BELIEVE HE EXISTS or that if He DOES He will let you in. You ENTER... by means of FAITH... THROUGH Christ. So, BEFORE you go to Him... IF you go at all... you should examine yourself... INSIDE... and discern what is REALLY there... what is TRUE... whether you really WANT to know... and whether if you ARE told... you would BELIEVE... because what is there is NOT hidden from HIM. You cannot fool... the Holy Spirit. You cannot. He knows that is in you... even if you don't. And take a lesson: it is sort of like the "red pill/blue pill" dichotomy in the movie, The Matrix: what you will see will not be "pretty", at least not in the manner that you expect, because he will start with you. And you... ain't pretty. None of us are. Inside... we are ugly... full of hatred, hypocrisy, prejudices, deceit, anger and more. Ug-ly. But then, there's the delusion of the blue pill... that let's us CHOOSE how we wish to see... which is always much, much prettier. Of course. Note, however, that not everyone can eat the red pill... and not everyone who does eat it wishes they had. Christ... is the red pill... the "door"... to reality. Our own lack of faith... is the blue pill... by means of which we remain in the full illusion. He set the price and he is the one who allowed it to be carried through to the extent that he did.
Allowed it to be carried out, yes. Set the price... no. And it is not the same thing. The Iraqui beheaders set the price; the U.S. and British government allow it to be carried out. Why? According to them... for the "greater" good of the many. One life... for many. That people can "get" that... but not that God did the same thing... FIRST... and in a much greater way... baffles me. Totally. If GOd were as all powerfull as you believe him to be
You make an assumption, for I never said such a thing, though I do not deny it. and if I were God I dont believe I could allow such a heinous act to be carried out against an innocent man. It is unthinkable.
But see... THAT'S THE THING: YOU... ARE NOT GOD!! It was NOT your decision to MAKE. Now, again, if you DISAGREE with His decision, you are quite free to take it up with Him. But THAT would mean that you would have to BELIEVE He exists so as to even DO so, yes? Okay. Say you DON'T believe? Why are you wasting your energy? Yet, if you DO believe... how is it that you feel you are knowledgeable enough to check the hand of the Most High God??!!! WHO... are YOU? You have to make a decision here, dear 'Tor: you either don't believe God exists... and therefore, what is recorded to have happened to his Son didn't really happen, so that it is purely the imagination of some sick novelist (and so why are you wasting your time even debating it...), or He does... and IS "all-powerful"... and therefore not only has the RIGHT to make whatever decisions He wishes, simply by MEANS of such power... but the POWER to make them... and silence anyone who opposes Him. Tell me... which is it? I will tell you: He does exist, He is all-powerful... and He is merciful, slow to anger and abundant in loving kindness... so that what you have READ about Him... is more fallacy than face... so that my Lord SAID... when he walked the earth in the flesh... that he came... to bear witness to the TRUTH... and so LIVED that truth, just as he learned it from the Father. If then, Christ bore witness to the TRUTH about the kind of person my Father is... based on how Christ LIVED... then you would KNOW... what is TRUE about God... and what is false. Because if you knew CHRIST... you would know GOD. For that One, Christ, did NOTHING of his own initiative, but just he saw the Father DOING... he did. Wake up, dear 'Tor... and pay attention: you have been misled... and lulled into poor sensibilities.
How is that a merciful thing to allow to pay for something they had no part in?
I don't think the animals feel it's any difference to be sacrificed that way... or for the sake of feeding mankind. Either way... they die.
To say that animals go willingly to the slaughter is ridiculous. Have you ever been to a slaughter house where they slaughter beef. I dont think so! They know damn well what is going to happen to them and they are terrified!!
Oh, yes... that's why they all run away screaming... break out of their pens... sneaking out in the middle of the night... because they're terrified. Sigh! It is true that they would not go if they didn't have to... to keep US alive... those of us who rely on them for food. It is the same as with my Lord, when He said, "Father, if it is YOUR will... removed this cup from me. Yet, not what *I* will, but what YOU will." My Lord did not WANT to go to slaughter, either. But he DID... willingly. For US. And just like we owe him our lives for doing so... we owe our animals "brothers" as sacred stewardship, never abusing them and taking them ONLY for food. Even the most remote tribes know this. How can you make such a statement that animals know "this life is not all there is"?
Because it is true. The same spirit that grants them life... grants us life. There is no superiority of the man over the beast. Our flesh returns to the dust just like theirs. That they are MUTE... is irrelevant. Do you also talk to animals?
Ummm... not really. But I'm highly allergic to dander and such, so I have to minimize the live animals I have in my life. I truly wish that wasn't so, but I'm sure it's for the best because I'd probably be one of those ladies you hear of on the news who takes in every stray dog/cat she finds until they arrest her and board up her house... while sending the animals away to be euthanized... I never seen a gazelle or another animal that willingly offered himself/herself to a lion because he wanted to get to the next life.
But then, unless YOU talk to animals, how would YOU know? (By the way, many, many animals communicate with humans every day. All the time. Again, that they're MUTE... is irrelevant).
Here again you misunderstood what I wrote. I said would "someone" (not satan as he was the one that sinned) have to die for satans children in order for them to not have to die (perhaps another perfect angel)?
Actually, I don't think I misunderstood what you wrote; I think you misunderstood what I responded. But just so's we're clear: someone DID die for Satan's "children." The Jewish Pharisees, et al., were identified by my Lord as "offspring of vipers." Satan... is a poisonous serpent, a viper. They were told that they were from their "father, the Devil." Thus, they are his children. And yet... they are ISRAEL... and by means of my Lord, will be saved. I never spoke of satans "blood" either as I would assume he would have none. I was merely trying in my inadept way to say in order for it to match Adam sin and Jesus atoning for it, there would in "God's way of doing things" exact a perfect spirit creature to die for Satans children for them to have a chance.
A perfect being did die for them. And Satan has blood; every living thing, be it man (spirit or human), plant or animal. The life... is IN the blood... so that everything that lives... has blood. Satan still lives, though he will not always. BTW I am not shouting at you,
LOLOLOL! Of course not, nor I at you. Unfortunately, I couldn't reduce all of the text uniformly. Oh, and I use caps simply for emphasis (I'm too lazy to use italics, etc.) I just don't know the proper procedure to keep yours and my comments separate after the initial dialougue while still keeping both our comments intact.
Again, you're doing just fine. I totally understand where you're coming from... how... and why. I am not offended in the slightest, dear one. I only hope that YOU do not misunderstand MY zeal... for reproach. Truly, they are only admonitions and exhortations... not finger pointing or laying of blame. They are true, however, and truth is not always easy to hear...
Peace to you Shelby,
And to you, dear Toreador! Truly, may the undeserved kindness and mercy of my God and Father, the Most Holy One of Israel, whose name is JAH... of Armies... be upon you, along with the peace of His and Christ, my Lord, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH... if you so wish it. I am your servant... and a slave of Christ, SJ
shamus

AGuest,
Thank you for responding to my question. I do appreciate it.

An Apology Regarding "The Voice"...

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