Into the mystic (an experience). (page 20)

El blanko

I never choose what to believe. I believe what the available evidence compels me to believe. I don't "poo-poo" anything, but I try to question everything. It seems to be a much more useful and accurate way of viewing the world than blindly accepting everything anybody tells me.

Funky ... are you inferring that I blindly accept everything anybody tells me?

You take me for a fool sir if that is the case.

Of course I agree with your thought process - I believe what the available evidence compels me to believe - how could I disagree with that statement? I govern most of my life like that; whilst allowing my imagination to push my thoughts into other areas, exploring concepts outside of the objective world of thought - that is no crime and I do not insist that you take onboard these concepts and ideas.

As for that photo - I have a cheap digital camera myself and haven't managed to capture images with similar orb shapes. I have had speckled shots, but they do look profoundly different. I may try another experiment soon and see if I can replicate Jame's images. I'll let you know.

SixofNine

:We all have preconceptions, along with a variable degree of resistance to change.

True, but people like funkyderek to a much lesser degree. I see only advantage in this, with no real downside.

funkyderek

LittleToe:

I would posit that you potentially have some irrational beliefs of your own (I'm grasping at straws here ) and, upon challenge, your immediate reaction might be to defend them.

That's probably true. I've certainly been wrong before, and even vigorously defended beliefs I no longer hold. But I did not continue to defend them once I was shown - or worked out for myself - that they were indefensible. Of course I'm fallible, but I would consider it a character flaw to hold beliefs that I could not honestly defend.

I suspect you'd ultimately debunk them as that seems to be the kind of guy you are, but the reaction would still be a very human one. Some people are just a little quicker than others, to release their cherished misconceptions.

True. It seems to be in our nature to hold on to our "cherished misconceptions". It's certainly easier than constantly re-evaluating what we believe. But then eating fatty foods is easier than eating healthily all the time - at least in the short term. I think it's important to be aware of these tendencies and take active steps to avoid falling victim to them.

El blanko:

Funky ... are you inferring that I blindly accept everything anybody tells me?

You take me for a fool sir if that is the case.

No, and I didn't mean to imply that. In this case, at least, you have your friend's word for it. You know whether he's trustworthy. I do not. I don't really even know if you're trustworthy, so the standard of proof I require is perhaps higher than it might be if one of my close friends had observed the phenomenon. (Although, with most of my friends, I'd just assume they were high at the time!)

I govern most of my life like that; whilst allowing my imagination to push my thoughts into other areas, exploring concepts outside of the objective world of thought - that is no crime and I do not insist that you take onboard these concepts and ideas.

There's nothing wrong with that. Leaps of imagination are necessary to make new discoveries. I just try to exhaust all the likely possibilities first, then I go to the unlikely ones; only after that would I consider an explanation that requires the known laws of physics to be rewritten.

As for that photo - I have a cheap digital camera myself and haven't managed to capture images with similar orb shapes. I have had speckled shots, but they do look profoundly different. I may try another experiment soon and see if I can replicate Jame's images. I'll let you know.

That's a reasonable approach. Here's a site that gives a good explanation of why these "orbs" appear, including a technical letter from Canon.

LittleToe

Six:

True, but people like funkyderek to a much lesser degree. I see only advantage in this, with no real downside.

I agree entirely. I'm just pointing out the obvious, that it's something we all do, to a greater or lesser degree.
I see that he agrees with this.

Funky:The one thing that you consistently seem not to be addressing is that he saw it with his eyes first, then took pics.
The pics are the best representations of what he "saw".

If he'd just happened to get some film developed, and there it was, I'd be agreeing with you.

El blanko

Yep, interesting article - thanks for that. I'll pass the details on to James (although I think he may have read a lot of articles highlighting the dust explanation). Hmmm....

It's weird you know.

James does a 'control' shot before each session which appear to be well focused, 'dust' free and then when the room changes (as he describes the phenomenon) the orbs and particles appear.

I may actually go round one of the nights and sit in with him (defeat my own demons!!) and see what happens.

If there is anything else to report, I'll let you all know and if anybody wants to meet James and you are sincere, then I can try and arrange that for you. He is open to investigation, as I have stressed before.

funkyderek

The one thing that you consistently seem not to be addressing is that he saw it with his eyes first, then took pics.

That's hearsay, and therefore inadmissible.

The pics are the best representations of what he "saw".

And the only evidence that I've encountered for the claims. As they are indistinguishable from a completely mundane process known to affect digital cameras, I am forced to reject them as evidence of anything supernatural. That leaves... nothing. I'll need something better than that if I'm going to change my mind.

LittleToe

Derek:

That's hearsay, and therefore inadmissible.

No, it's anecdotal, and hence a lead...

I'm not saying it's a substitute for proper scientific method, but to entirely dismiss it is ignorant, IMHO.
You are making a choice to disregard it. If the guy is telling the truth, and additionally HAS succeded in capturing something on camera, it's worth further investigation,. dont you think?

funkyderek

If the guy is telling the truth, and additionally HAS succeded in capturing something on camera, it's worth further investigation,. dont you think?

Of course. I never suggested otherwise, merely that the amount of investigation that has been done so far has turned up nothing conclusive. I repeatedly suggested further investigation - using a video camera, thermometers, etc. If he lived near me, I'd go around to his house and observe myself. If I had good reason to believe there was something in it, I'd travel anywhere to see it. But the evidence is flimsy at best and I suspect that this case will not turn out to be the elusive proof of the paranormal that people have been searching for for centuries.

FMZ

OK, on topic but off topic....

Proof of something supernatural... hmmm...

How about this: Recently I visited a friend down in Devon. I had only been there once before, and had pretty much kept myself to myself.

Well, I attended a Spiritualist church there, and the clairvoyant (whom I had never met in my life, as I lived in Manchester my whole life, I didnt even speak to him before the service started) got a message for me whilst on the platform. He said it is my grandad, who died when I was one year old. He described my grandad to a tee, mannerisms and all. How he was sick towards the end but refused help, and how I take on that personality trait. He said how he was in the military. He also said that my grandad is proud of me taking on the fatherly role (I married and became a stepdad 3 years ago), but I need to show more patience. My wife is always, always telling me the same thing, as do other people. As he was saying goodbye to "my grandad"... he got something else. He asked if he had owned 2 dogs, big ones, about waist height. I replied that I did not think so, at least not to my knowledge. He said, "well keep it in mind, and let your family know that the dogs are with him if you find anything out."

3 days later, I asked my mother when I got back to Manchester if grandad had ever had two dogs. This was true, he had a boxer and an alsatian, both known in the neighborhood for their size.

Now... this was a very faith-affirming event for me. There is no way the man could have known this information unless he lived near my grandfather and knew him well. And even if he did, he surely did not know me. He didn't know my name, and can't have recognized me from however long ago it was that he knew my grandfather, I have changed a lot, (when my parents saw me for the first time in three years when I went back to visit them, they didn't even recognize me for a moment).

Tear this experience apart if you wish, or just take it for what it is... a beautiful event which made me feel good, and gave me the impression that my grandfather is watching over me and is proud of what I am doing with my life.

FMZ

myauntfanny

I think it's beautiful, FMZ. I really love to hear these sorts of experiences, thank you.

Into the mystic (an experience).

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