Into the mystic (an experience).

by El blanko 207 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

El blanko

Fran:
I'm a little tired, so please forgive my wording.
Thank-you for your explanation and in a way I am in the same place as you are now. I no longer feel the need to belong to an organization and certainly would never be involved with the WTBTS (or similar) as I used to be. My involvement now, is by way of helping those fading away to have me as a friend and support if needs be.
The feeling I had last year especially was fantastic and the synchronicity I felt, awesome. I realize that I am not alone with these feelings and just before my own experiences began, I started to associate with a small group who were open minded about faith and beliefs (aside from the one guy who wants to be a JW again - another long story!) and these people helped me exorcize various demons of the mind.
I am at the moment trying to level myself out belief wise and gambol through different theories searching, endlessly searching - yet retaining an openness that was formerly held down by dogmatic patterns of thought.
It was this openness and partially an acceptance of the reality of life and death (my death) that lead to a deeper sense of connectivity with the world around me and also far more compassion towards others.
When I say 'my death' - I mean in the sense of extracting myself from the fantasy world of the JWs ... where my former hope of 'life everlasting' on the earth was pretty much the only reason I sought God. I believe I had to die internally speaking in order to return back to a state of near-normality - I hope that makes some kind of sense, I am tired
I have gone through intense periods of depression and despair, yet feel this a necessary part of rebuilding my personality and also at these times, staying in touch with the greater reality (that I subjectively believe in - 70% of the time ).
.... that is where I'll leave my monologue for tonight and believe me, if I learn anything else about Nigel & Mary, I'll post it somewhere. I know Nigel relatively well and believe me, the man is full of himself ! Let us assume for a moment that demons/evil spirits are real and are involved ... well, I would say that they may be having a bit of fun with the guys ego. As for Mary, I can only feel sorry for her from afar.
El blanko

now THERE'S another subject. Psychic vampires... I've wondered about that, as there are some people that I get around that feel like they just suck all the air out of the room, and I'm mentally, emotionally (and otherwise) drained just from interacting.
Hmmm... I can relate to that feeling and know plenty of people like that. A brother I have the misfortune of having to have occasional dealings with carries a spirit with him that is a 'fun vacuum'. He manages to project such a dark and miserable air that one feels the life being drained out of the room or occasion. He does this on purpose and is a nasty dark leech. He has a conceited and self-centered personality and I believe this attitide resonates with negative energy.
Frannie Banannie

When I say 'my death' - I mean in the sense of extracting myself from the fantasy world of the JWs ... where my former hope of 'life everlasting' on the earth was pretty much the only reason I sought God. I believe I had to die internally speaking in order to return back to a state of near-normality - I hope that makes some kind of sense, I am tired
I have gone through intense periods of depression and despair, yet feel this a necessary part of rebuilding my personality and also at these times, staying in touch with the greater reality (that I subjectively believe in - 70% of the time ).
.... that is where I'll leave my monologue for tonight and believe me, if I learn anything else about Nigel & Mary, I'll post it somewhere. I know Nigel relatively well and believe me, the man is full of himself ! Let us assume for a moment that demons/evil spirits are real and are involved ... well, I would say that they may be having a bit of fun with the guys ego. As for Mary, I can only feel sorry for her from afar.

Yep, El, it makes sense to me....this reminded me of that scripture that says, "you must remove the rafter from your own eye," but it comes to my mind changed to mean, "remove thereafter from your own eye."....heh
I understand how fatigue can "fry" your brain, El. I was so tired after a 36 hr marathon on the computer, I was muddled last night, too, but I thank you for taking the time to respond and thanks for the info on Nigel and Mary. I do hope that the spirits were only having a bit of teasing fun with Nigel, instead of there being a darker meaning to the incidents.
Frannie B
funkyderek

Wow! How did I miss this thread?!
There's way too much to comment on everything. One thing I did notice was the photograph posted by El Blanko. My first thought was that these "orbs" were tricks of the light, caused, as Rem said, by "out of focus dust or bugs". They look, to my eye at least, exactly like photographs with out of focus dust particles in them - even up close.
I though El blanko's comments after Rem expressed his skepticism were very interesting.
10 minutes research on the internet will unearth that explanation
It took me about 30 seconds. There are numerous examples of photos of this type. Some sites claim they are supernatural phenomena, others that they are out-of-focus dust particles. Interestingly, the number of orbs in a photograph can apparently be increased by increasing the amount of dust particles in the atmosphere (see http://www.prairieghosts.com/trouble.html)
All of this leads me to the (tentative) conclusion that there's nothing supernatural going on here, just a well-known and understood phenomenon of photography.
we actively discounted many images to try and eliminate that possibility within the skeptics mind.
Perhaps I'm interpreting this incorrectly but it seems from this that you had a whole series of photos, some of which were even more obvious examples of out-of-focus particles, but you chose not to show those because they didn't support your beliefs. Am I wrong?
Plus, how do you account for clusters of orbs moving around his house, whilst he was watching them away from the camera lens?
Unfortunately, we only have his word for that. Actually, we only have your word for his word. While I don't mean to imply that you or your friend are lying, that just isn't enough to convince me, nor do I think it should be. As the only evidence your friend has for these events can be explained by perfectly mundane means, it would be irresponsible for an independent observer to simply accept his word. Even if he's not lying, he may very well be mistaken. What he needs is a video camera. Tracking one of these orbs for a few seconds on video would eliminate the most obvious possibility and would invite explanation.
Now of course I could be completely wrong about this, but with the limited information I have, I have to make a choice between either accepting the existence of a type of entity completely unknown to science without any real evidence, or thinking that someone I never met may be lying or mistaken.
So which choice do I make? Well, new discoveries are made all the time - new subatomic particles, new species of animals and plants, new types of ceramics etc. However, these don't usually happen in people's living-rooms. Sometimes they do, but not usually. The kind of things that do happen spontaneously in living-rooms should happen in lots of living-rooms unless there's good reason to believe that there's something unusual about this particular one. On the other hand, people make mistakes all the time. People play jokes, people lie.
So provisionally, I'm going to assume that the "orbs" in the photographs are what they appear to be - out-of-focus dust particles - and withhold judgement on your claim that your friend saw these orbs away from the camera, while leaning (call me biased) towards an explanation that doesn't require everything we know about the universe to be rewritten.
As a skeptic, I have often been called a "naysayer" or accused of being "closed-minded". I hope the above will give some insight into my thought processes. And if anybody can see a flaw in my reasoning, please point it out. If I'm wrong in any way I'd genuinely like to know about it so I can correct it.
LittleToe

Derek:
Thanks for the rundown on how you process this.
I guess, given ElBlanko's in-depth explanation, it comes down to whether or not you trust someone to be telling the truth about what they saw and then photographed.
We've all been in the position where we made that mistake before, so I'm not suprised at your leeriness, to repeat that course.
Of course he did offer for anyone to go round and test it for themselve
El blanko

Thanks for the thoughts funkydude:
Just to give a little more information as to the sequence of events before the manifestation. I have spoken to my friend again, just to make sure I have everything in place.
Often, the temperature will drop in the room all of a sudden. The hairs will often stand up on my friends body, then after a short while mist or orbs will appear.
I personally have no idea what this may be and I am not suggesting for a moment that this is a spirit creature 'mucking around' and I am not trying to convince anybody here that spirit creatures actually exist, I have my thoughts on the matter, you have yours.
What I am convinced of however, is that in this particular case, there is a clear example of supernatural phenomenon.
As far as the photographs were concerned, volume wise, there are many images yet some were are not as distinct as others and the ones that appeared speckled, James insisted were part of the experience. I asserted that most people would look at those ones and just say, "dust". There is no point uploading endless images to the internet to have many of them discounted as being out of focus or dust! To my mind, that muddies the already muddy water, further.
The images we agreed upon were the ones that clearly displayed something out of the ordinary.
Of course you have to take my word for it, but I seriously have no agenda and you choose what you choose to believe and poo-poo everything else.
What he needs is a video camera
I will suggest that. I know he is looking into obtaining other equipment and apparently a film crew are interested and will be contacting him at some point.
funkyderek

Often, the temperature will drop in the room all of a sudden.

Good. This is testable. A thermometer would be a good start. Of course, with known laws of physics the heat that disappears from the room must go somewhere. If it doesn't; i.e. if the walls and neighbouring rooms don't increase in temperature by a corresponding amount, then something has occurred that could reasonably be described as "supernatural" This would be quite difficult to test, and unless someone with a big budget gets involved, you may have to try something else. As I'm sure you know, a change in temperature also means a change in pressure, which means a draught. I'm speculating but perhaps if the temperature drops by supernatural means there would be no draught. There should certainly be a draught shortly afterwards when warmer air from surrounding rooms comes back in. This would be measurable as well. Not sure what it would mean exactly but if he's got a video camera he should set something up so he could get visible evidence of this as well.
What I am convinced of however, is that in this particular case, there is a clear example of supernatural phenomenon.
I'm still not convinced, and you don't seem to have any more evidence than I do. Perhaps if you could explain where your thought processes differ from mine as posted above, I'd better be able to understand why you reach this conclusion.
As far as the photographs were concerned, volume wise, there are many images yet some were are not as distinct as others and the ones that appeared speckled, James insisted were part of the experience. I asserted that most people would look at those ones and just say, "dust". There is no point uploading endless images to the internet to have many of them discounted as being out of focus or dust! To my mind, that muddies the already muddy water, further.
That may be true, but it still smacks of unfair selection. It's very frustrating that photographs of supernatural phenomena always seem to be out of focus or ambiguous.
The images we agreed upon were the ones that clearly displayed something out of the ordinary.
Really?
Can you please tell me exactly what way the "orbs" in this picture differ from the commonly observed and well-understood phenomenon with low-end digital cameras that sometimes causes dust and other fine particles to appear as semi-transparent circles when a flash is used. I just don't see it.
At this point, I actually do want to see it, if only for the challenge of having something that requires an explanation.
Of course you have to take my word for it, but I seriously have no agenda and you choose what you choose to believe and poo-poo everything else.
I never choose what to believe. I believe what the available evidence compels me to believe. I don't "poo-poo" anything, but I try to question everything. It seems to be a much more useful and accurate way of viewing the world than blindly accepting everything anybody tells me.
LittleToe

Derek:
I never choose what to believe. I believe what the available evidence compels me to believe.

Ah, but my friend, that is a choice in and of itself.
Your comments are reasonable. I can't imagine it'd be too hard to link together tempreature and pressure sensors in each room of the house, fed back to a computer to cross-compare.
I'm intrigued by the regular claims of temperature drop, too.
funkyderek

Ah, but my friend, that is a choice in and of itself.

I don't think so. It's certainly not a conscious choice. I can't simply choose not to believe in pineapples, for example. I could try but I would always secretly know - or believe - that pineapples exist. Similarly, I cannot choose to believe in giant man-eating pineapples. I can imagine them and even pretend to believe in them, but I would be incapable of convincing myself that they actually exist.
LittleToe

ROFL
I love your tuirn of phrase
We all have preconceptions, along with a variable degree of resistance to change.
The concepts we hold dear are our beliefs.
I would posit that you potentially have some irrational beliefs of your own (I'm grasping at straws here ) and, upon challenge, your immediate reaction might be to defend them. I suspect you'd ultimately debunk them as that seems to be the kind of guy you are, but the reaction would still be a very human one. Some people are just a little quicker than others, to release their cherished misconceptions.
I forgot to add that the video camera idea was a good one, too.

Into the mystic (an experience).

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