What 'exactly' changed in Adam when he sinned?

by gumby 297 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    May you have peace!

    Nothing "changed"... "in"... Adam. What was already IN Adam... was brought out: each one of us is enticed by our own DESIRE. And then, when that desire is... ummmm... not controlled... it manifests itself by causing us to sin. Adam DESIRED something that was not his to possess: the knowledge of good... AND bad. To be "like God"... knowing BOTH. Eve's desire... for the fruit... was drawn out. She did not guard her heart, so that the Adversary SAW such desire... and exploited it.

    You may now ask, why would God create Adam with a desire that he would not be allowed to fulfill? But that question would be in error, for God would NEVER have kept anything from Adam that Adam should have had... or that he desired. Indeed, Adam RECEIVED what he wished for: the knowledge of good... AND bad. Life... AND death.

    What God TRIED to do... was WARN Adam of the consequences of his desire: death. Bad. Knowing bad. Thus, knowing death. Adam received was he desired.

    We, too, possess all sorts of desires. Some are fulfilled with good results; some bring bad consequences. The lesson? What you DESIRE... is not always what is good for YOU... or for your NEIGHBOR. For example, you may DESIRE... something that belongs to someone else. Is that a "good" thing? Maybe. Maybe not. Most often, while it may be good for YOU... it may not be for your neighbor. Thus, the command, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's... stuff. What about bearing false witness? Or murder? You may indeed DESIRE to do such things... but what could be the CONSEQUENCE of such desire?

    My Lord had such desires in him also. That is why the Adversary attempted to EXPLOIT them during my Lord's temptation. Like us, he was tested in ALL respects. UNLIKE us... he did not give in to his desires, but gave his desires over... to the will of God.

    Adam did not change what was in him; he simply allowed what was IN him to manifest itself... to his own detriment and that of his progeny... rather than SUPPRESS it... for the good of himself and his progeny. Our desires will sometimes lead to selfish acts... acts that cause us... and others pain. It is THAT which God, through Christ, is trying to teach us NOT to do. For if God Himself gave in to every desire HE has... most of us would not be here. But He overshadows HIS desire... by means of His LOVE... which is borne out in His MERCY and FORGIVENESS. For although He may desire vengeance, and most certainly has a right to it, His LOVE... COVERS such desire.

    That is the lesson of the Christ: to not look out for our OWN interests... but that of other's. We are... our brother's keeper. LOVE... will allow us to do that. Self interest... will not.

    May the undeserved kindness and mercy of my God and Father, the Most Holy One of Israel, whose name is JAH... of Armies... and the peace of His Son and Christ, my Lord, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, be upon you... if you so wish it.

    Your servant, friend and a slave of Christ,

    SJ

    P.S. Regarding the erroneous belief that God did not give Adam "permission" to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Bad, God did not, per se, restrict Adam from eating from it. What He DID... was lovingly WARN Adam: "Of every tree in the garden you may eat, except from the Tree in the midst of the garden, for in the day you eat of IT... you will die." Many believe this to be a prohibition; it was not. It was a WARNING. God did not say, "If you eat of that Tree, I will kill you," or "If you eat, I will put you to death." He said, "If you eat... you will die." Meaning, "If you touch the hot stove, you will get burned," and not "If you touch the hot stove, I will burn you." May you have ears to hear... and get the sense of this truth. Peace!

  • gumby
    gumby
    She did not guard her heart, so that the Adversary SAW such desire... and exploited it.

    Hi Shelb,

    Nice to see you participate.

    The problem with your idea leaves one to wonder if the enticment of sin was what determined mankinds destiny.......how long do you think it would have been before Adam or Eve screwed up were they to have a second chance? My point is, the chances of them being obeidient their entire life looks slim. Eve was easy. It also seemed to me she already knew bad because she stated she WEASN'T to eat from the one tree......she KNEW it was wrong....she had knowlege of good and bad.

    If your child is told not to hang off a cliff by his finger tips.....does he have to fall before he understands that's a bad thing?

    Gumby

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    Peace to you!

    The problem with your idea leaves one to wonder if the enticment of sin was what determined mankinds destiny...

    I am not sure what you mean by "the enticement of sin." We ALL have desires within us that are self-serving. All of us, even God and Christ. The DIFFERENCE between us and them... is that due to their LOVE... they are able to withhold such desires if and when they would prove detrimental... either to themselves or to another. We, on the other hand, usually "go with" our desires... to the detriment of ourselves... or another. Not always... but sometimes. That was the issue: whether Adam and Eve would REFRAIN from their OWN desire... to the benefit of themselves and their progeny (everlasting life)... or to their detriment (death). Their choice to give IN to such desire... led to their "sin"... and, in this case, the knowledge of "bad", which was death. Stuff like that tends to happen when we put our own desires over that which would be of MORE benefit to ourselves or others.

    ...how long do you think it would have been before Adam or Eve screwed up...

    Since Adam was created in God's image... he could have gone forever without "screwing up." All he had to do was exercise LOVE... for God, for Eve, for his progeny... OVER his desire to be "like" God in knowing good AND bad. He made a choice, based on his own desire.

    were they to have a second chance?

    Like many, you assume Adam and Eve WON'T have a second chance. Who's to say that, though? Will there not be a resurrection... of the righteous AND the unrighteous? Did not our Lord go and preach to the spirits that sinned? Who's to say that Adam and Eve did not put faith in him even then? Who's to say they never repented of their deed, so as to feel sorrow? We do not know their hearts, dear Gumby. True, that chance was not immediate, but to say it doesn't exist at all is... well... sort of premature, don't you think? For doesn't God who mercy to whomever HE wishes to show it?

    My point is, the chances of them being obeidient their entire life looks slim.

    How is that? My Lord did it... and he had a disadvantage that Adam did not have: sinFUL flesh. Adam was created in the image of God... and initially had sinLESS flesh. So what was in HIM... was his own. My Lord, however, inherited flesh from his mother of flesh, Mary, which flesh had sin IN it (had it not, it would not have died). But the sin HE carried was not his own... but ours. If he, although sinless on his own, but carrying sin in his flesh, which sin would have attempted to entice him just as it does us... could remain obedient... BY PUTTING LOVE OF GOD AND NEIGHBOR FIRST... why couldn't Adam? True, WE can't... perfectly... because of the sin that is in US. Therefore, we have a ransom and a "propitiatory" or "cover"... for OUR sins. And who's to say that that same ransom will not, at some point, be permitted to "cover" Adam, as well, should HE be shown mercy?

    Eve was easy. It also seemed to me she already knew bad because she stated she WEASN'T to eat from the one tree......she KNEW it was wrong....she had knowlege of good and bad.

    Bad... and wrong... are not the same thing. Wrong can sometimes be borne of ignorance. It can be borne of fear. It can be borne simply of imperfection. The "bad" that is being referred to here is not "wrong," or "error." Adam and Eve did not want to know what it was to be wrong or commit an error. They want to KNOW... what it was like... to KNOW... death. They KNEW life... just as they knew THE Life. For they "ate" from him (the Tree of Life that is my Lord). What the wanted to KNOW... was death... and still live after having known it. THAT... would be "like" God. Christ... having died and been resurrected... knows good AND bad... for he knows Life (God)... and Death (God's enemy), who has NO hold on him.

    At some point, Adam WOULD have been granted to know both good and bad... and live. But not at the time he chose to take such knowledge for himself... without any protection... without anyone to ransom him BACK from Death. And God tried to warn him, telling him that if he ate, he WOULD die. Ultimately, Adam came to know good... and bad. Bad, however... death... still has a hold on him... and his offspring. Something he did NOT take into consideration when he gave in to his desire.

    If your child is told not to hang off a cliff by his finger tips.....does he have to fall before he understands that's a bad thing?

    If I, knowing death, quite well, but not being enslaved to it because death has no hold on me, tell my child not to hang off a cliff by his fingertips because if he does he will die, he will know death, but I don't WANT him to know it because I also know that he doesn't have the "key" to death as I have and so death WILL hold HIM... and my child... wanting to be like me and so KNOW death, too, like me, KNOW what it's like to die... but failing to take into consideration that he is NOT me... but only falling for some lie told him that if he hangs he WILL be like me... rather than being told the TRUTH... that he cannot "conquer" death as I can... and thus, let's such DESIRE to be LIKE ME does what I specifically warned him NOT to do, what I specifically told him... out of LOVE... because I know the HORROR of death and DON'T want him to know it at ALL... warn him because I know that death will have a HOLD on him that he will NOT be able to "buy" his own way back FROM... but he chooses to know it anyway... and hangs from a cliff by his fingernails... well, I'll let you draw your own conclusion.

    What would I do in that case? I would provide a ransom... whatever amount it took... even my own other beloved son's life... to buy that son back. Hopefully, I will have another son to offer... and that son's offering will suffice... will have enough VALUE... to do the job. However, if the second son is like the first... hard-headed and stiff-necked... then I would run the risk of losing them both, wouldn't I? Praise JAH... ONE of his sons... loved Him... and us... enough to be obedient and LISTEN to his Father's warnings. We... the children of the son who hung from the cliff... owe the other Son... our lives.

    May you hear... and get the sense of it, dear Gumby-Mon!

    Your servant, and a slave of Christ,

    SJ

  • Schizm
    Schizm
    Now Gumby, you're not shunning him, are you? --ozziepost

    Yep, he is ... which leaves Schizm ROFLMAO!

    To Gumbish: Don't forget what I said 'bout the old blood pressure.

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Schizm:
    I'll interrupt my silence to state - I'm glad you make someone ROFL...

  • Schizm
    Schizm

    You're an alright Guy, Little Toe. *LOL* Hang in there ... before long you may actually become a Big Toe. *LOL*

    This place really cracks me up, no kidding.

    Schizm

  • gumby
    gumby
    This place really cracks me up, no kidding.

    Schizm

    Hey, I thought I told you to get the hell outta here!

    Shelby shelby shelby........your an easier argument than dear ol' chizm.

    Since Adam was created in God's image... he could have gone forever without "screwing up." All he had to do was exercise LOVE... for God, for Eve, for his progeny... OVER his desire to be "like" God in knowing good AND bad. He made a choice, based on his own desire.

    I can't believe, based on the bible story, that Adam had any intention on knowing good and bad. He was like anyone else who if someone told them to try something because it was good and "really wasnt' bad and it didn't harm you", and they talked you into it. He mearly learned she was right. He ate the fruit and he didn't die.....and it was good! Where did he fail? He wasn't looking to "be like god". He simply listened to his wife who had a bad idea like many wives do and he gave in. ( I REALLY believe this...if they existed at all) His actions weren't from a motivation to be like his maker.....he was a man....period.

    Like many, you assume Adam and Eve WON'T have a second chance. Did not our Lord go and preach to the spirits that sinned? Who's to say that Adam and Eve did not put faith in him even then? Who's to say they never repented of their deed, so as to feel sorrow?

    My point is, the chances of them being obeidient their entire life looks slim.

    Shelby has been influenced by cultural myths and beliefs that the dead aren't really dead but rather alive somewhere else. Shelby.......Adam and Eve died.......just like Andy Kauffman did. The scriptures give no indication they really didn't die because it speaks of a place with wicked spirits in them. Adam was never a spirit....the others were "spirits" that went bad.

    Adam did not have: sinFUL flesh. Adam was created in the image of God... and initially had sinLESS flesh. My Lord, however, inherited flesh from his mother of flesh, Mary, which flesh had sin IN it (had it not, it would not have died).

    I'm surprised you haven't been attacked by others for saying Jesus had sin in him. I'm also amazed you could make a comparison of integrity comparing a man who lived for eternity side by side with his dad, to a new creation by god, hot off the workbench, who ate a fruit by mistake. Is that a fair comparison?

    At some point, Adam WOULD have been granted to know both good and bad... and live. But not at the time he chose to take such knowledge for himself... without any protection... without anyone to ransom him BACK from Death.

    This is a dub teaching and is only human speculation with absolutely no back-up through the scriptures.

    Your turn,

    Hugs, Gumby

  • onacruse
    onacruse

    "What 'exactly' changed in Admin when we sinned?"

    A snake talked to us, and we ate the pomengranate, and covered our crotches.

    Oops, sorry, off-topic.

  • Schizm
    Schizm
    Hey, I thought I told you to get the hell outta here!--Gumby

    Had you asked me politely to leave I'd have done so. But since you "told" me to leave I think I'll just hang around.

    Shelby shelby shelby........your an easier argument than dear ol' chizm. --Gumby

    Up to this point you haven't shown yourself capable of dealing with ANY of my arguments. I keep answering your questions only to have you ask more questions. You haven't overturned one single thing that I've said for the entire duration of this thread. What's more is the fact that I happened to have been the one that supplied you with the solution to the title question you sought an answer to, only to have you refuse to acknowledge it after I did.

    [Adam] ate the fruit and he didn't die.....and it was good! --Gumby

    Well, in that case Adam should still be around somewhere on earth today shouldn't he? Funny that nobody has happened across him. Maybe he's living somewhere under a different name ... like "John".

    Shelby.......Adam and Eve died.......just like Andy Kauffman did. --Gumby

    Flip flop!

    I'm surprised you haven't been attacked by others for saying Jesus had sin in him. --Gumby

    Welcome to the club, ex-dub.

    Schizm

  • gumby
    gumby
    and covered our crotches.

    From what I've heard about you Craig.....it's probably a good thing we cover them.

    Gumby

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