Do you believe in god?

by freakyAL 89 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • OrphanCrow
    venus: The fact that God is not doing anything to remove suffering is not a problem for me to disbelieve in Him because we all know humans are capable of removing suffering, but they are not inclined to do (they are even inclined to increase the suffering)

    You can't have it both ways, venus. You had made this statement:

    Similarly, God has put in an invisible mechanism whereby every one receives what he deserves or takes birth where he deserves to be in

    which claims that every one deserves their place of birth yet then you try to shift the blame of suffering that arises from that place of birth onto the shoulders of other human beings, not God.

    Which is it?

    God's "invisible mechanism" that knows who is deserving or not in order to place their birth in a position of privilege or a position of starvation? Or is it a way to test us lowly undeserving/deserving humans? Are the poor ones put on earth as a test for the rich ones? Are they God's measuring stick? Is that their function?

  • cofty
    The fact that God is not doing anything to remove suffering is not a problem for me to disbelieve in Him because we all know humans are capable of removing suffering - Venus

    No we don't all know that. Humans can do nothing to prevent a tsunami or even predict it more than a few minutes in advance. If you are defining "god" as the creator of earth then he murdered a quarter of a million men, women and children in the 2004 Asian tsunami. He is a moral monster.

    Of course your definition of god is so vague you will wiggle out of this dilemma with more ambiguous, self-aggrandising waffle.

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel
    Cofty » If you are defining "god" as the creator of earth then he murdered a quarter of a million men, women and children in the 2004 Asian tsunami. He is a moral monster.

    How do you define murder? And why would God be a "moral monster" for not stopping a tsunami? All people die, regardless of whether they're saints or sinners, good or evil. Christianity has never promised that man could escape death, pain and heartbreak. It does, however, argue that there is purpose in all things, even if you can't see it at the moment. You blame God because He could have prevented it and didn't. Or, that he may have triggered it Himself.

    Of course one might ask what what responsibility God has to prevent disasters. None that I know of. In fact, He warned us of what was coming.

    Jesus: And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. (Matthew 24)
    But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (Ibid.)

    You blame God for not stopping the pain and suffering of mankind without knowing why we must endure it. Peter writes, "Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator." (1 Peter 4:19)

    Even prophets are often put to the sword for their beliefs, having no promise of their lives once their ministry is finished. All men must die and God has never promised anyone their rewards in this life. If there is a God, one must know what His purposes are; also, why we're here and what the future holds. Again, if there is a God, and He's taking an interest in us, what should we expect of Him? You argue that if God brings death to man, or even allows it to come, then He's a "moral monster" for not donning a cape and coming to our rescue! But that's not what He's promised us.

    What has He promised? First, He's promised all men, both the just and the unjust, a deliverance from death. That is through the atonement. As an atheist, you are completely free to say you don't believe in God and that such belief is delusional. That's your religion. But to accuse God of murder and say He is guilty of taking life when He, in fact, promises us deliverance from death, isn't accurate. First, if there is a God, He is the arbiter of what is murder and what is not murder. And two, He is the One who created the moral laws that condemn it; thus, you would have to be in a position of judgment to render that judgment. The basis of your charges rest on 1) the premise that God exists; 2) that He wantonly violated His own law by either creating or allowing the tsunami to happen; and 3) that if guilty, judgment ought to be unbelief on the part of the aggrieved (that is, the human race).

    If God does not exist, the people who perished ceased to exist when the waves took their lives. Thus, no one committed murder. If God does exist and He is the God of the Bible, then those people did not cease to exist, but are as alive as they were in life; only without their bodies (which will be restored later). Thus in either case, God is not guilty of anything, neither can He be judged, for all things are subject unto Him.

    Finally, according to Christian theology, nothing that happens to us on Earth is of any lasting harm. People don't go through eternity emotionally scarred. In fact, in the vast majority of cases, we humans are better off after our sojourns here. But to get there from here is, of necessity, a painful process -- one you don't presently understand. Thus it is, "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." (Philippians 2)

    If I'm right, then your knee also shall one day bend. On the other hand, if I'm wrong, neither one of us will ever know because we'll be dead.

  • venus


    Yes, humans can. Nature is only returning all the harm humans inflicted on it. See what happens if humans undo all the harm done to nature, and restart human life on earth as a real worldwide family based on love caring for nature and all the animals. Nature will change accordingly.

    If animals could sense in advance and moved to safer places just before the 2004 Asian tsunami ( why can’t humans do so? This is because humans are so busy with living in noise coming from within and without. See what happens when you still your mind and listen to the presence of tranquility within, you will also able to act in premonition just like those animals.

    Also, not all natural calamities are nature's retaliation. (

  • venus


    Yesterday you referred to a famine-stricken child's photo. An African poor child does not reveal anything about God; but it does reveal the thoughtless behavior of the parents who bring them into birth when they themselves do not have anything even to eat. It only reveals that they have not learned from some of the rich people who can afford to have 1000's of children yet choose to have only one or two. When the resources are dwindling, humans should go for one child and spend all their resources on one child which would have been scattered over many children, and bring up that one child as an asset to the society. If this is the case with all parents, who will dare to waste their lives joining organizations such as terror group, drug group, criminal gangs ...etc.

  • punkofnice

    I have been watching this thread and thinking, 'Wow. To think I used to believe in god. How illogical.'

    One thing I need to say about this comment, perhaps out of context, but never mind...

    but it does reveal the thoughtless behaviour of the parents

    Maybe....but it isn't the child's fault. Callous and indifferent god. No use. Should receive scorn not worship.

    On another note.

    I'm reading about god this and god that...jesus this and jesus if these fictitious characters actually exist.

    Why isn't it obvious that religions have taken their own manure pile of a book, invented legends and then people have run away with the ideas...built up a whole network of fictitious nonsense..others come along and believe it??? A bit like a pyramid scam...sort of..probably a bad illustration for all you pedantic literalists.

    For many, they don't question why they were coincidentally born into the right religion. They don't question why their god just happens to be the right one. Born in USA/UK? Probably the jesus myth. Pakistan? Probably the allah myth. Ancient Greece? get where this is going.......

    Rant over. Grrrrrrrrr.

  • cofty
    Yes, humans can. Nature is only returning all the harm humans inflicted on it. - venus

    Tsunamis have no connection with human activity. They are caused by the sudden release of pressure between tectonic plates deep below the ocean - pressure that has been building for thousands of years.

    animals could sense in advance and moved to safer places just before the 2004 Asian tsunami

    That is like saying if we only tried harder we could fly around safely at night like a bat.

    Why are people who pretend to be the most spiritual often the most callous - as well as being profoundly ignorant?

  • cofty

    Cold Steel I have already dealt with all of your sophistry here...

  • Xanthippe
    If God is the father, he would definitely know the capacity of his children. Man is capable of solving all the problems on earth, he really wants. Already some parts of earth is like paradise which can be extended to other parts if humans really wants.

    I feel you're missing the point here Venus. You seem to have agreed with me that God is impotent in human affairs although you think he is watching us because we are clever children and we'll get it right in the end. The point is he isn't doing anything and as we know how we got here through evolution there is no evidence for his existence.

    First constructive change should be this--ban all religions.
    Then arrange a panel of experts from all countries to find out ways to avoid all other wastages

    So you have left religion behind, we have something in common. Personally I think you need to push yourself one step further and accept that we will eventually find an explanation for 'unexplainable' phenomena, of which there are many, without resort to a supernatural being.

    We don't yet have the physics to answer all our questions but resorting to a god of the gaps is a) ignoring all the evidence that he isn't there and b) missing all the fun of finding the real answers to all the amazing things still to be discovered.

  • UnshackleTheChains

    I believe in God. I need my faith as it gives me hope.

    However...I am not at all surprised how the watchtower Society has turned so many off their beliefs. This Religion just about smothered my faith to the point I almost became an atheist.

    I have read the Bible through and now have my own belief system.

Share this