Satanic Ritual Abuse

by Big Tex 88 Replies latest members private

rem

Cruzanheart,
You seem to be taking a contrary position and arguing about the number of cases REPORTED, which has absolutely nothing to do with how many times this actually happens and it makes you sound like a Jehovah's Witness defending their holy organization against the baseless claims of child abuse. You know better than to defend their, or you wouldn't be on this board in the first place, so why try to minimize people's feelings about their own abuse (which you didn't witness) by pointing out how few cases appear in the media? That's not productive.
I think you are completely misunderstanding my position. The only reason SRA has been brought up was to illustrate a point about how memory can be manipulated. The SRA cases of the 80's are a good example - we have firm evidence that people's memories can be manufactured both internally and by outside sources. There is nothing mysterious about this as scientists have proven this many times over. Even I have early childhood memories that are clearly manufactured or grossly inaccurate.
I don't think I'm defending anybody - certainly not certain Satanists who abuse children in ritualized settings. I realize that child abuse happens and is more common than we all would like to believe. I was just making a point in the previous thread that there is proof that some extraordinary claims of children have been shown to be false. The scary thing is that these kids were not really lying - they actually believed there stories - at least after a while. The parents and authorities blindly accepted the stories without corroborating evidence. Why? Because it's easy to blame Satanists for this type of behavior. People wanted to believe there was some type of Satanist conspiracy out there. It's a good lesson for us today.
This fact in no way diminishes those who have been abused, whether in a ritualized fashion or not. It is just a caution about accepting memories - even our own memories - as fact without corroboration. As I said before, Big Tex has done work to corroborate his memories so I was not speaking specifically about him.
Just think about how much pain and sufferng a false memory can bring someone. Since false memories have been proven to occur, it is good to caution people to corroborate their memories. The abuse they remember may never have actually happened! By knowing this then the person may begin the healing process or learn why he is having false memories.
rem
drwtsn32

FunkyD and rem:
I understand what you are trying to do. I am disturbed with how easily people's memories can be manipulated... both intentionally and unintentionally.
But it's my opinion that skepticism isn't helping at all in a thread such as this. To tell someone who believes they are a victim of some sort of abuse that it's "in their head" probably isn't the best way to handle it, even if there's a good chance their memories aren't real.
cruzanheart

The abuse they remember may never have actually happened!

People who have been abused tell themselves that all the time. Their abusers tell them that. They try to pretend the abuse never happened and walk around in constant pain. Finally they find the courage to tell their story, perhaps in the face of criticism and scorn from family members, and then they have to contend with those oh-so-cautious ones who feel the need to bring up the other side of the story, that these memories might be false and they could wreck a lot of lives by talking about it.
If my child EVER comes to me and says, "Mom, I remember this or that happening and YOU did it," I will be shocked and grieved and I will then proceed to do everything in my power to HELP. I'll tell my child everything I remember. I'll go to therapy with them. I'll try to help them figure out what happened, how they came to feel that way. If it's true, I'll try to make it right. If it's false, I'll try to help them. Big Tex's parents looked at him coldly and said: "It didn't happen that way. You're crazy." And then they disowned him and never spoke to him again.
Be careful to whom you say those words, rem, because YOU might harm someone by them.
Nina
rem

Cruzanheart,
Ok, basically you are taking the position that false memories don't happen or are even more rare than reported SRA cases. There is no evidentiary support for such a notion, but you are free to believe that. All I'm saying is that there is evidence that they do happen (which has been presented), so caution should be taken.
The way Bix Tex's parents handled the situation was wrong, but has no bearing on the point I was making. You seem to be ignoring the fact that false accusations (intended or not) also harm people. That's why balance is needed. That's all I'm saying.
rem
Inquiry

Well, I'm going to "hop" into this discussion... Thanks Big Tex, for sharing your experience... your quite brave.. and I do believe you... (does it feel like your walking around outside in you underwear? ) I had a witness friend who had similar experiences, and she would be "triggered" by all sorts of things...especially symbolism... which was very interesting... she saw the symbols....they are a part of her memories. I was with her while she went through the effects and I can tell anyone who doubts, the effects are very real.
The biggest problem is that the victims usually were so young when they went through what they did, that it's hard for them to catagorize exactly what they saw or what happened to them. My friend went through the whole ritualistic issue... she thought that must be what it was... but she was so young at the time it happened, it was really hard to pin down... and the religiousity of the JW's didn't help the situation.....and especially having any length of history of these events... you have to remember, these were mostly children... with the minds and abilities of children... trying to relate to some very heavy environments... her therapist validated her feelings, which is what therapists do, but because no one could or would cooperate in finding out what actually happened during her rather difficult childhood.. trust me I met her mom... strange woman....she remains somewhat unresolved and suffers terribly, though lately less terribly, from these effects..
I have no doubt that her environment was very violent when she was a child... and that her mother does not want to talk about it... during discussion with her she was so defensive, unnecessarily so... and talked about how things are "different now".... odd to do that instead of trying to alleviate the very obvious problems her child was having.... given that, it's not too far of a step to think that things were said and done, maybe in the heat of extreme anger, that caused this child to have memories of being ritually abused... there were knives involved in some of them, animals being killed in others...they lived on a farm, I'm thinking maybe a family pet was abused and died... it could be as simple as that... It could also be that several family pets or farm animals were killed in front of her... she was so young... what could she do with those memories... If she was abused while this was going on... how on earth would a little girl be able to seperate those two traumatic events? She was also molested by her father... and presented the symptoms very clearly of that... and that much, people in her family have admitted to her... after a lot of asking....years in fact... that the family was so closed mouthed about it... you know... too closed mouth about it... couldn't help but pique that suspicion that something had occured, and was the norm for this family for quite some period of time... and the "conspiracy" of silence continues...
I myself am troubled by a single memory... just one... I pretty much know the rest, but I was very small.. and I remember something happened, and I was bleeding very badly... I remember being in my great aunt and uncle's bathroom... they had a bright blue shower tub... they were running water on me, I remember that, and there was a lot of blood, but when I asked anyone in my family what happened... no one would say... they looked at each other... and they knew what I was talking about... but no one told me of the event... no one confirmed or denied it... so it sits... just like that... it is something to me that remains unresolved.... as I was so young.. what do I do with that memory? I can't ascribe any more to it, nor do I try to, than what it was, but it is disturbing... and every once in while... I remember it... especially near water... and I love the water.. I'm a water kinda person... but I find myself recalling that even when I'm having a great time and for that time, usually short, I am quite unable to consider anything else... odd, wouldn't you say? And in some small ways dabilitating... it's pretty hard to maintain the happy happy, when mentally occupied with such a thought... I'm much older now and I've learned to cope with it... but, it's still there... I wonder why someone didn't just tell me about it? It would be so much simpler for me if someone did. Did I cut myself... did I fall down....or did some hurt me? Was it an accident? You know... something to resolve it... the mystery persists and now my parents are dead, and my great aunt and uncle though living are still not talking... so there you have it... a disturbing memory with no details to help resolve it... sux large...
Imagine having more that that memory to deal with and not being able to resolve it... unfortunately, in not having all the information, what is left for my friend, Big Tex and many others is to acknowledge and try to cope with the possibilities, which is like a bandaid covering a wound that will not stop bleeding. Time helps a lot... but not being able to resolve the issues with any kind of confirmation or denial is most definately the hardest route to take. And the one left to these poor people.
Hope that helps... and sorry if anyone was triggered...
Inq
oldcrowwoman

I need to put my 2 cents in. I don't get into the heady stuff and pigeon hole where one is in the scheme of things regarding abuse. Personally I don't find that helpful for myself, whether its numbers or percentages. Abuse is Abuse in whatever way. I don't find it helpful for me. Actually I feel discounted. It's baloney One has to walk in the shoes in order to understand.
I am in therapy for a long long time. The reality my therapist knows and validating my experiences. What she does'nt know is the gory details of the abuse. That is something I carry with me. The memories are their and at this point of life its not controlling my life 24-7.
I admire (((((all those who shared their story))))))) your courage and strength to break the silence. The reality we all wanted is to be heard and validated.
OCW
cruzanheart

basically you are taking the position that false memories don't happen or are even more rare than reported SRA cases.

No, I'm not.
You seem to be ignoring the fact that false accusations (intended or not) also harm people.
No, I'm not.
I think we're both saying the same things but from different ends of the spectrum. I'd rather err on the side of believing the child or the memories of the adult and take a chance on harming innocent people until the truth is made known, rather than discount or minimize someone's account of what they remember. If the memories are true, the victim is already hurt and can be hurt worse by people saying it's false or didn't happen. If the memories are false, then there is the opportunity to prove that and help the person figure out why they feel the way they do. That's the side I'm coming from. Your position is on the other end, hence our conflict. I don't think you represent a "balanced viewpoint" at all. And I'm not saying I do either -- I can't be clinically objective after what I've seen and heard in my life. But I'm not on a witch hunt either.
Nina
Big Tex

rem
I hear what you're saying. I started this thread not to bag on you, but specifically to put the warnings up at the top of the thread so that victims/survivors would not stumble on something traumatic for them. However, I also had a problem with your original statement in my thread on repressed memories.
There were several Satanic Ritual Abuses reported in the 80's, yet no evidence of such activity was ever found.

You seem to be changing your position. First you say there is no evidence of such activity, but when I provide some examples of convictions you switch to there is no evidence of a worldwide conspiracy of satanists. Can we at least agree on this point: there is little or no credible evidence to cause one to believe satanists, the Tri-Lateral Commission, Illumanati or Bozo the clown controls the world in a secret conspiracy?
Having said that though, my own experience showed me it is possible to have small groups involved in ritualistic behaviors that abuse children. Does that mean there is a conspiracy? Don't know. I've said I'm skeptical of this sort of thing, and in all candor if not for my own experience I would likely feel as you. In this thread, Avishai has pointed out that he knows of cases of ritual abuse that do not appear in the media. It is therefore logical to believe that is true elsewhere in this country. It is possible there are cases, perhaps many cases, of bizarre and ritualistic abuse that never appear in the meda, and thefore you and I would not hear about them.
I'm always intrigued though by why people feel the need to "caution" victims of abuse. Stories of false accusations and false memories are put forth so quickly and so easily. When I was in therapy it was before the whole repressed memory movement started and I encountered tremendous resistance from friends and family. I think people from non-abused backgrounds feel this need because they themselves don't want to believe such a hideous thing could happen, and they are searching for another explanation. It is easier to believe the victim is a liar, or confused, or mistaken, than to accept their story as reality.
Realize though I started this thread in response to a statement you made regarding the lack of evidence of ritualistic abuse and that
The only reason these accusations were brought up is because some unscrupulous psychologists created false memories in their patients.

Has that happened? Absolutely. But again, I submit you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Don't be guilty of dismissing a psychological behavior (repressed memories or stories of ritualistic abuse) simply because of unethical or incompentent psychologists and/or law enforcement. There was a time when cutting edge theory held that maggots came from rotted meat. We know now that is not true and it's kind of silly. So it is with memory. It is not fully understood in 2003. Keep an open mind. Repressed memories occur. False memores are possible. But how the two occur or intermingle, no one fully understands.
funkyderek
Thanks for the link. I think my response is also aimed at you as well, in that I can agree that incorrect memories can indeed by coerced by psychologists. But to me it is similar to the fact that people are wrongly convicted, and yet we do not disassemble the justice system for that fact. I submit that false concvictions happen more frequently than false memories. I say that because of a simple basic fact of human nature. Most people do not "get" anything by making the accusation of abuse. It costs a lot to say "I was humiliated and degraded by another person." Most people would rather stay silent quite frankly, and they do.
Really I think your caution should be more aimed at the psychological and law enforcement communities, rather than victims. If there are people wrongly accused, then let's work to improve the infrastructure. Let's get properly trained psychologists who know what they're doing. That way when someone does make a wrong accusation it is more easily identified, but at the same time when someone makes a correct accusation the way is easier for the victim.
Lady Lee

grrrr
No one here has denied the possibility that some memories of SRA or RA are fabricated or confabulations. It happens. Not every case is real. But it does happen. And in those cases where it does happen do you really think these people will leave evidence lying around? Do you really think they will not terrorize the victims into silence?
The FMS victims tend to come forward and want to sue. But the real victims stay silent out of fear. Hmmmm what does that tell you? FMS victims talk about it in gory detail to anyone who will listen. Real victims struggle mightily with memories and nightmares, imagery and symbolism, doodlings and odd occurrances that can never be explained. Real victims struggle to hide and live in fear of what will happen if they talk. Real victims struggle with the truth of what lies inside.
Personally if anyone came to me and declared all these memories and they wanted to go public I would be very cautious.
I would believe much more the one who still lives in fear and refuses to go public.
And I believe there are organized cells of SRA groups. I have good reason to believe that I cannot share. They are small, well-hidden, and on occasionget together with other cells. The members are often well-respected in their communities and have the ability to carry out and hide their activities. In my experience RA tends to be one individual (like Dahmer) acting out their bizarre fantasies.
When I was a child no one talked about sexual abuse. It wasn't in the media. People hid it. Families hid it. People thought it was rare. Well studies have should 6/10 girls and 4/10 boys are victims before they are 18. Media attention says nothing about the occurance of sexual abuse. Even the studies are poor due to the numbers of people who will disclose even in an anonymous form. And let's not forget those who don't remember and who will say NO when asked if they were sexually abused.
Piph

Thank you, Euph, for speaking up for me in this thread.
I don't feel comfortable joining in the discussion here, but Big Tex, I'm sending you a PM. Thank you so much bringing this subject into the open.

Satanic Ritual Abuse

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