Christianity promotes a helpless victim mentality...

by logansrun 151 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Brummie


    I know you will find its a tad unusual for me to disagree with you ;) but this statement:

    What I am saying is that it is ridiculous to say that Christianity is the sole reason why people behave in a righteous manner.

    Is the crux of the problem I have with your original post, because while I agree with this statement, it is just as ridiculous for you to assume that believers have a victim mentality soley because they are Christians. Tinkerbell hit on this point early on in this thread, a lot of people suffer the same things without Christianity.

    Christianity, in it's truest, fundamentalist form, promotes an unhealthy and non-productive victim mentality.

    This is like saying "humanity in its truest fundementalist form promotes an unhealthy schitzophrenia" there is no basis for such an outlook, just because some people have schitz doesnt mean we can judge the whole of the race as suffering the same thing. But to argue a case that has an agenda some people would highlight the problems of schitz in a scitzophrenic and then assume they had built a water tight case just because the schitz was human. You are selectively choosing your evidence. Last time I disagreed with you was because you gave "apostates" an indirect thump while defending the Watchtower and you did it while being very selective. It makes me wonder why you would appeal for people to be balanced with the Watchtower and then yourself be very unblananced with other peoples beliefs?

    If you want to present a case then do it honestly, an honest critique will help more "thinking people" to appreciate what you have written. I used to get tracts written about JWs that were totally dishonest in their conclusions, they didnt help anyone. It was the fair and honest critiques that helped me and many of us here.

  • LittleToe


    Define it how you wish - I care not a jot

    As for responsibility, I'm the first to accept that there is much in life that I don't know. It's a big world out there, and the older I get the more I appreciate that fact, and the less dogmatic I get.

    My definition of a Christian is someone who has made a connection with the divine, the form of which takes the description of a personal relationship with someone called Jesus.
    As for doctrine - there are a (very) few essentials, in which there is unity, but quite a few non-essentials, in which there is diversity and hopefully tolerance.

    As far as orthodox Christianity and doctrine goes, I can't claim that, hence the title.
    Copout? Believe what you want, but that generally isn't part of my personality. If you believe it to be so, that's your perogative.

  • seven006

    Little Toe,

    I may be mistaken but it sounds like you attend a "new age" Christian church. I was conned into going to one by the last lady I was dating and I was slightly impressed with what they were "trying" to do. They seemed to be trying to look at Christianity a bit different and talked a lot about Neil Donald Walsh. His first book "Conversations with God" I got a big kick out of reading and made some sense but then he went a little too UFO in the following books and I saw him as just another out of work writer who stumbled into a huge market of gullible people so he could make a few million selling books. Just like Hal Lindsey in the 70's who wrote "The Late Grate Planet Earth". Walsh can't look directly in the eyes of an interviewer when asked the question "did you think of all the money you would make writing a Christian based book."

    Slap the word god or emboss a golden cross on the cover of a book and make a million. Same old story, new book cover.

    I know I have not visited every kind of Christian church nor would I want to. It seems that "some" of the Christian churches are trying to side step the basic myths of the bible so they can come of as a bit logical and not so fundamentally intolerant. I have no problem with them and applaud their efforts. But when you cut through all the foil embossed books it still breaks down to a group of Jesus junkies. As I said in my first post in this thread, "What ever wakes you up in the morning and puts a smile on your face than so be it."

    It is more of the "non Christian" people are lost soles and without Jesus can't even butter their toast that bothers me. Iv have not met every person in the world. I can only go by what I personally see or hear. I made my statements based on that. All of us can only form our opinions on our personal perspectives. The majority of Christian churches I am familiar with do not preach or talk like the church you described that you attend. But, I'll bet you use the bible as your main reference book, just like the Christian churches I have alluded to. If you want to pick and choose what parts of it you want to believe and which parts you have to admit are a little Mother Goose then have at it. That still doesn't change what the bible says and what those who wrote it were trying to control.

    If you want to look at it that way then every person on earth follows the bible and is a Christian every time they choose not to pick up a gun and blow their neighbors brains out. If you choose to ignore the ludicrous parts and accept the general common sense parts then all I can say is you are a fairly smart man. Your kindness and pleasant demeanor on this board is well known. I would tend to attribute that to who you are, as opposed to what church you attend. But that's just me, you see things from your own perspective and I respect that. I just don't agree with all aspects of it.

    When you call yourself a Christian you have pinned a label on you that can only be generalized these days. If you would have called yourself a Catholic or Southern Baptist or member of the church of England or member of the KKK and we were having a discussion my comments about god and jesus would not come off as such a generalization. The term Christian paints a very broad stroke nowadays.


  • Ravyn

    hey! Mother Goose has alot of wisdom and was very politically satirical which required some degree of intelligence and wit! She was also a French witch.


  • StinkyPantz


    I meant no disrespect; but I'm sure that's what I did. I just think that most people see Christianity differently than you, so when you say unorthodox it seems as if you aren't being true to the commonly accepted/traditional . . "belief system", and this throws people off. That's not the exact phrase I want to use, but I think you get what I'm saying. It just seems like maybe unorthodox means that you can pick and choose how much you wanna accept or do. By not being orthodox, you get away with more stuff.

    I, of course, am no one to judge. I have no idea what I believe. I envy you for at least believing in something strongly.

    Okay, I need to shut up now. I insulted your character and that was not my intention.

  • Gamaliel


    I believe that how a person structures his spiritual belief system has more to do with where they were born and where they live than any kind of spiritual calling. If this DB was created in China or India the discussions would be similar but the mythical religious figures we talk about would be different.

    I think you are absolutely correct. I identify myself as a Christian because I can still use the core elements from the Christian storybook as a touchstone to define all of my remaining beliefs in spirituality. Under different circumstances, I might be going on about elements in some other religion which I would pick and choose to provide a viable spiritual structure. But for now, for myself and amongst most of my neighbors, Christianity still provides the most immediate framework to help categorize new spiritual ideas as to whether they are already a part of my defined spirituality, or if they can be subsumed within it, or if they are unworthy in comparison or are, perhaps, superior to it. It's much the same way a person might describe themselves as a Keynesian economist amidst a current playing field of economic permutations that can never again allow an ideal Keynesian system. Yet analogies based on Keynes in the context of systems of his time can also provide valuable analogies for comparison among systems that hadn't even been tried in his day.

    The thought that we were all born in sin keeps the meek, humble and gullible in line. We all have the ability to know what is right and wrong. Blaming Satan for things you do wrong or thanking god for things you do right keeps people from realizing the personal potential and self worth. Eliminating ones self worth and independence is the key to religious control. Own their minds and their bodies will follow.

    This gets right to the point of the thread title. However, I think there are other lessons in the Christian story that are much more important than a teaching that we are "born in sin." My earlier examples from John and Luke about whether it was sin that made the boy born blind, or sin that caused the tower to fall and kill some people, tells me that this idea must not have been a core part of Jesus' teaching. I am a literalist when I read the story, and if some ideas from later apostles have proved literally wrong, then that's part of the "moral of the story." They were simply wrong!

    I agree that Paul tried to promote a version of the ransom story, for example. But he premised it (I don't know why, exactly) on the idea that Jesus had literally been resurrected, that if the resurrection didn't happen, then we are without hope in the world. Then he stuck his neck out and spoke of what that hope entailed (rapture, last days, imminent judgment day, etc.). It didn't happen. But the core of Jesus teaching wasn't premised on a ransom. The core of Jesus teaching was what Paul had to admit: that faith can fail, that hope (resurrection?) can fail -- but love never fails. Love is the purest motivator of spirituality. Put another way, as James said: "the purest form of religion is to look after suffering orphans and widows." For others, of course, that love will motivate different activities -- but as a system of spirituality, the "love motivation" is the remaining core of Christianity.

    Sorry for the sermon, but I think the real, core lessons from the Christian story are very empowering. I doubt my "twisted" version of Christianity has much chance of catching on, but I have faith that if it (or something like it) did catch on, then ultimately, love (for our neighbor) can motivate against militaristic/corporate greed, for example, and thereby help extend the life of the planet as a home. It could promote the creation of medicine and healing practices that reduce pain and suffering -- so I also see salvation in this teaching. You are right that we don't have to call it Christianity -- but that's where I happened to find this teaching.


  • talesin


    IMHO the key to spirituality can be summed up in a few phrases:
    • Love IS the law
    • Fear only fear itself
    • Know thyself
    • Submit the ego
    • Connect to the divine

    well said! truly a philosophy almost anyone could embrace.


    not a Christian, but still a spiritual person


  • LittleToe

    Actually it's a conservative evangelical church, believing in the inerrancy of the bible.
    Maybe I do have "New-age" tendancies, who knows
    I respect you and your viewpoints, too - the joy of diversity is that we don't HAVE to agree

    "Fairly smart" - Yayy!! what an accolade

    I'm only glad that you didn't apply the "helpless victim" title to me (I had to drag this back to the thread title, somehow!!!).

  • SixofNine

    I have a feeling I've just witnessed a virtual head patting

  • LittleToe

    To my way of thinking "unorthodox Christian" makes a statement that causes people to pause and consider the intent of the title. I don't especially like titles as I am who I am. I do, however claim a relationship with Christ.

    I hate religion for religion's sake (even though I maintain a religious life), so I'm not keen on accepting all the baggage that comes with the simple title "Christian".

    Part of this baggage is the idea that all Christians have a helpless victim mentality!!!
    When you've seen Christian's scream at God in anger and frustration, a few times, it kinda dispels that a little (there are biblical precidents, for that, too).

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