Christianity promotes a helpless victim mentality...

by logansrun 151 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • logansrun

    Little Toe,

    But you believe that every "believer" is ultimately wrong, so I'll take that with a pinch of salt.

    Well, that is true to a certain degree but not always. For example, I believe -- quite firmly -- that there is "something more" to the universe. A teleology. A purpose. I don't believe in a personal god, but do believe there might be something, somehow approaching what might be called "God." Even so, a personal God (or gods!) cannot be totally ruled out. The agnostic position, as emotionally and intellectually unsatisfactory as it is, is still the most logical given what we know.

    Also -- not all believers are as sincere as yourself. I also believe you are far more open than many. That is what puts you above some of your Christian comrades.

    Ultimately, we'll all find out, for we are all destined to die eventually - helpless victims to that sure fate.

    Victims? Hmmm....I'm not sure if I would phrase it that way. You know, in many of the Eastern religions they feel that death is nothing more than an illusion -- just as the "self" is an illusion. To a certain degree I agree with them (though not totally). To be a "victim" would indicate that such an eventuality was somehow avoidable. Death is not, though. It just is part of nature, an essential part in fact. Much like brushing our teeth, it just *is*.

    IMHO it IS pretty simple:
    Love God and love your neighbour (with all that that entails). Love IS the law.

    I agree with the latter unequivically and, if one defines "God" as the Ultimate, or the Highest Good I agree with the former as well. Good heavens, now I'm starting to sound like Paul Tillich.


  • logansrun

    On this whole Ransom thing.....

    It has just occurred to me, if I am not mistaken, that nowhere in Genesis does God say to Adam and Eve that their children would also die because of eating the fruit -- that the implications would be death and torment for billions of people. If you really take the story at face value, you have to ask why Yahweh didn't give them this important piece of information.


  • LittleToe

    LOL @ Paul Tillich comment.

    Death, where is your victory, where is your sting...

    I agree - I was just trying to allude to your thread title, and Brummie's earlier comments. Whatever the result of it, it IS inevitable.
    Whilst I don't fear it, I do have a little apprehension about the preceding moments

    Submission of the ego is the key to so much of spirituality (as I alluded to, earlier). The question is, submit it to what/who? Some would say that matters little, as long as you "just do it!" (to quote Nike).

    Edited to add - When "Christ" is the focus of that submission and love, and a living relationship is forged THAT is the essense of being a Christian, regardless of pretty much all other doctrine.

  • LittleToe

    Since they had no kids at that time, and the directive seemed to indicate that death was instantaneous, I suspect it never came up

    IMHO the real question is "was it a physical or spiritual death?"

    Since even the animals appeared to die physically, why is it we claim that physical human death was the result of this action? Why wasn't that inevitable, too?

    Just musing, but if all the biblical comments regarding death are taken as "spiritual" death, including those of Jesus, so much of it falls into place. It would also indicate that they died immediately, in this sense.
    We are born dead, spiritually, and require being "reborn" to life.

  • reubenfine

    Outstanding topic and post, Bradley, which I agree with wholeheartedly. Personally, I refuse to believe in talking donkeys. (Num. 22:28) Call me crazy if you will. The message of Chrisitianity is, "You suck and need to sell yourself into slavery to save yourself in a future time." The atheist knows he can't waste a day because this is it and it's time to get on with living. Remeber the "Kiss Hank's Arse" thread? LOL

    If there is a god of love I would just like one question answered: "Besides condemning billions to death for the sin of two people, how many millions has God personally had killed and how many billions will he kill in the future?" A "God of Love?" What a joke. This kind of love I don't need, thank you very much.

  • LittleToe


    The message of Chrisitianity is, "You suck and need to sell yourself into slavery to save yourself in a future time."

    On the contrary, IMHO the message of Christ is "I love you, and you can have life now!".

  • StinkyPantz
    I love you, and you can have life now!

    You forgot the "BUT". Nothing is ever that simple. Jesus made very specific requirements. You have to believe in him for one (John 3:16 "that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.") He expects people that lived thousands of years after he died to believe that he was more than just a charasmatic speaker. Taking into account a person's birthplace, home environment, and other psychological factors, and it's very hard for most people to believe that Jesus was more than a man.

    For those of you that do accept that Jesus was a diety, you are a victim in the sense that you feel that w/o Jesus your life means nothing. Or at least your afterlife.

    I think that being a decent person should be enough for God. We accept each other's shortcomings, he should be able to also.

  • seven006

    Little Toe,

    For me to relate to anyone being "Christ like" I would have to believe that Christ of the bible actually existed. I don't. Just as I don't believe we are all in a pile of shit because a talking snake told a naked lady to eat a piece of fruit.

    That's where this whole concept of original sin and Christ ransom started. It is the first scene of the first act of the whole play. The rest of the story hinges on it. If it's bullshit, the whole story is bullshit.

    If I am going to take a journey somewhere I need to know the place I am going to actually exists. To find that out I look on a map, if it's not there I look at another map. If it isn't there it causes doubt. If people tell me it's there because they heard about it in a story, that isn't enough to convince me. If people tell me it's there because they believe it's there and I should just have faith it is there I still don't buy it. If they tell me how beautiful it is there and how happy I will be once I get there, it all sound nice, but I still don't buy it.

    If they tell me a book says that it is there because a monkey drew a picture of it using magical tomato juice as ink, It doesn't impress me. If I pick up several books that explain the mystical qualities of the magic tomato juice ink and how a monkey drawing with tomato juice can never lie because an all powerful Kangaroo sent him, I start to look around to see if I am standing in the middle of a mental ward.

    The story about creation and Adam and Eve has so many holes in it I cannot with any kind of logical or rational mind believe it. Now if I can't buy into that first story, how can I buy into the story of Christ? How can I feel safe about the hero if I don't fear the bad guys and believe they actually exist? The story about the talking snake and bad fruit choices makes about as much sense to me as the monkey and magical tomato juice.

    As the well know philosopher Kierkegaard said "you cannot use logic and reasoning to explain Christianity [and he was a devote Christian) what else is left? Faith? Sorry, I need a little more than "trust me" to buy anything.
    I am not easily conned even though I have been in the past. My level of listening to someone saying "trust me" goes down every time I see someone being conned. I see religion as the biggest con job ever perpetrated on human kind and thats all religions not just christanity.

    Starting at the beginning of anything will give you big clues about what ever follows. Read as much as you can about all the major religions and their origins and you will see that. If you can't then so be it. Most Christians (I have known) do not care to look at all the road maps and are just happy going for the ride. They simply have faith they will get to the place they have been told about by the monkey and magical tomato ink book. As long as they don't try and run over me on their trip, I really don't care. If they do, I'll try and get out of the way or in extreme cases at least slash their tires.

    Kierkegaard was right. He was also somewhat of bright man who is considered the champion of Christians in the realm of modern philosophy. If you read about his life instead of just reading what he wrote, you will find out he was mentally abused by his fundamentalist father and gave up the woman he loved because he didn't have the balls to be totally honest with himself. He simply bought into what his abusive old man told him and he died a very unhappy man. The sad thing is, he didn't know he was unhappy, he just throught he was doing what was right. Kind of like being a JW isn't it?


  • LittleToe


    Being a "decent person" isn't the point. My understanding of it is that God accepts you "warts and all".

    The "but" is simply - He loves us, and nothing but hard-heartedness would make us refuse that love.

    Were you ever upset with your parents, as a child, and they put their arms around you in love?
    Maybe you were stubborn and angrily refused their love, but eventually you succumbed...
    ...or did you?

  • reubenfine
    "I love you, and you can have life now!".

    I used to believe something like that, too. But if I don't choose him then he will execute me because he loves me, right? Or else torture me eternally, along with a few other billion people. I'm not trying to argue, just trying to make sense out of the love thing. I do respect your opinion.

    Do you have children? I love my children (now grown) and don't put them to the test to see if they love me, nor do I demand that they choose me or I will kill or torture them. I just love them unconditionally. It seems to me that my love is of much greater quality than the god of the Bible, who intentionally killed David and Bathsheba's baby for their sins. That is not love but pure evil, in my opinion.

    Best regards,


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