Christianity promotes a helpless victim mentality...

by logansrun 151 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • tinkerbell82
    My concern is the fundamentalist Christian

    and if i had read your initial post a little more carefully i would have gleaned that helpful little bit of information...sorry! my mistake :)

  • Euphemism

    Logan... have you read anything written by G. B. Shaw on the subject of Christianity? Your views remind me of his. Of course, his views were somewhat Nietzschean, so I guess that's not really surprising.

    The essence of Fundamentalist Christianity is the message of guilt and redemption. This message can be a real booster for people who either have emotional issues that are fundamentally tied to guilt, or who are frustrated with the amorality of their own lives.

    The problem is that it's a temporary fix, a band-aid over the real problem. Individuals who have issues with guilt need to learn to recognize the origins of those feelings, so that they can overcome them. Individuals who are frustrated with amorality need to learn how to construct their own ethical system.

    Fundamentalist Christinianity, rather than teaching that we are all whole and worthy for own sakes, teaches that we need something external to redeem us. It can save people from the pursuit of belongings and pleasure as the source of happiness; and it can save them from a fundamental sense of unworthiness or failure. But it doesn't go to the next step, and teach them that they can actually find happiness and wholeness within themselves.

    Christianity does, however, contain principles that can lead in that direction. Most beautifully, the idea of unselfish, principled love... of loving people just because they are people, and not because of what they are or what they do.

    All too often, however, fundamentalist Christianity shunts that principle aside.

  • talesin


    'religion is the opiate of the masses'

    can't remember who said it (Marx or maybe another socialist); a remnant of philosophy class, but one I hold dear to my heart.

    this one who has 'freed herself' couldn't agree with you more


  • KGB

    Well ! I must say your pretty harsh towards those who do not believe just the same as you. Maybe you should go start up your own little group and then convince them to swallow poison or something alike maybe that pleases you.

    I am a christian and yes probably one of the most liberal christians there is. No I am not a believer out of guilt but my own belief comes from the fact that that is what pleases me the most. I am responsible for my own actions and not to blame it on anyone else "including Adam & Eve.

    My beliefs come from a love, a pure love from deep in the heart for someone naming Christ who died in order that I might live forever. I don't have to live with fear of my sin because like Romans 8 : 2 say's (For in the law of Christ Jesus has saved me from the law of sin and death) So in those few words I don't feel I need to live by guilt or even fear anything from it. I know I am a sinner and there is nothing I can do about it other than to try to stop doing whatever it is thats bad. Not for anything but myself and for my fellow man.

    You see I don't fornicate because I dont want diseases and I dont want to be responsible for giving them to someone else, I don't steal because I don't want to be stolen, I don't covet because I have all I need. So not everyone that believes is what your calling them. Maybe your problem here with christians is because you have some guilt of your own you need to deal with....

  • Ravyn

    KGB--I dont think of you as a fundy. and I dont think you do either. he is talking about those in-your-face-go-to-hell-snake-kissing types. If anything KGB you are naive and you dont see those dangerous ones hiding behind the skirts of brotherly love. that is not a bad thing. I really dont think Bradley meant it as a personal insult to you. I feel exactly the same as bradley about it---but I spent 3 long horrible years right in the middle of those charismatic whackos in Tennessee.


  • Hamas

    It is true about Fundamental christians !

    'Ave it !

  • borgfree

    Hi Logansrun,

    I am a Christian and I disagree with almost everything you said. I do not feel like a victim, I do not fell like I am a victim of two people who lived 6000 years ago, I think I am under a sentence of death because of those two people, but do not think of it as being a victim.

    I am not unhealthy or non-productive. I do not feel helpless on my own, only when it comes to eternal life, that is in the hands of God. You are in no different condition than I when it comes to that, we will both live 70-80 years and then die, I have the hope in my God of living after that, apparently you do not, Show me where I am in any worse condition than you in that regard.

    The Christian feels helpless on his own -- condemned by sin and absolutely unworthy.

    I do not feel helpless, but I am under the condemnation of death because of sin, but I will not necessarily die any earlier than you, and I maintain a hope for better, I guess you do not, how am I worse off than you? My belief is that when I accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior I was released from all condemnation, so I no longer feel I am even under that curse.

    They must call on a force which there is no empirical evidence for whatsoever to solve their problems.

    How does that harm or even have any effect on you or anyone else. I call on that Force for help, if God gives me help I am very thankful, if He chooses not to give me help, I will still do my best to solve my own problems. How does that differ from you other than I go one additional step in calling on my Creator? Who is harmed by my beliefs/actions?

    The entire fundamental message of Christianity is, "You're helpless without Jesus."

    Only to some degree. I am helpless to overcome the sentence of death without Jesus, not totally helpless. Again, how are you any different? other than the eternal life part?

    Read Paul and you will see a man who feels worthless without the drug of the psyche which he calls the Ransom.

    I would love to be like the Apostle Paul. I would love to have his faith, power and strength, can you honestly say you wouldn't?

    . Everywhere in the New Testament you see it: victimology, helplessness, weakness, guilt, shame, defenselessness

    You see something entirely different than I do in the New Testament. I see none of those things, only to the degree of sin and shame for sin, but my sins have been completely paid for, by The Christ, so even now, that shame is past.

    All this is said to magically disappear because God or the son of God died -- himself a victim.

    Not magically, but by the power of God. The Son of God was not a victim. He Himself said that no one took His life from Him, that He laid it down Himself, willingly.

    Jesus doesn't save. Save yourself.

    I guess we will all find that out for sure one day, you could be right and so could I, if you are right, I am no worse off, if I am right, you are in big trouble.


  • Ravyn

    Bradley said:

    PS -- I am not dispariging some of the great thoughts Jesus and his followers taught. Nor am I saying there is no benefit in Christianity whatsoever.

    this is what irritates me most about christians. they don't hear a word anyone says but what they want to hear. Borgfree are you one of those snake-kissing charismatic fundys? Logansrun was talking about fundys! Why must christians take such vehement personal offense when they are criticized or challenged on the basis of belief? THAT is the very thing that keeps me from being christian. And fundys are giving you all a bad name! can't you see the whackos in your ranks?

    Personally if you are going to take that kind of offense at what Logansrun had to say, then maybe I am wrong, maybe the shoe does fit. sheesh.


  • onacruse

    Brad, excellent post! How the heck am I supposed to get any work done when people like you keep asking such provocative questions? LOL

    Keying off of tink and Euph, I'm strongly inclined to wonder: Doesn't the very idea of a "ransom" itself essentially promote a victim mentality? And I don't mean "ransom" in the Christian sense; I mean "ransom" as in I'm being held against my will by a bunch of mercenaries. Anybody in that position is a helpless victim!

    Now suppose that we do try to couple (ameliorate?) the Christian ransom with the otherwise noble principle of agape. Sure, that sounds good on the surface, but isn't that same love conditioned on accepting the ransom? If so, then at least to some degree, even in the most liberal Christianity, we're being forced into a victim mode. Or are we to stretch salvation to the point of universalism? If we do, then we're no longer talking about ransom-salvation, and therefore not about Christianity.

    The core doctrine of Christianity, fundamentalist or otherwise, is the ransom. And with it must come along a measure of self-helplessness.


  • borgfree

    Hi Ravyn,

    One of the big problems of an internet forum is that you cannot tell how a person is answering. I did not take offense at Logansrun's post. Had I been talking to him directly you would be able to tell that.

    I think in his words Logansrun was attacking (maybe too harsh a word) Christian beliefs in general, but I am not upset by those words, I was just responding, I did not mean for my post to be vehement. I do not kiss snakes or anything like that, but I am a Christian believer.

    I guess I could have put a smiley face after my post but somehow I thought the subject was a little too serious for that. I did not take offense and I hope I did not offend either, if I did, my apologies to anyone I offended.


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