Christianity promotes a helpless victim mentality...

by logansrun 151 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • logansrun

    Little Toe,

    I'm just do you view the Bible? I know you are a Christian and claim a mystical experience, but everyone's take on the Bible and it's stories is different. Do you literally believe in it's history, ie, a real Garden of Eden, talking snakes, Jesus multiplying loaves, etc. If you care to share, please do. If not.......well, humph!


  • LittleToe


    Any theory that is not falsifiable is most probably wrong.

    My brain just exploded.
    Mind explaining that one to me???

  • seven006

    As Bradley mentioned in his last post, things like "do unto other's and love your neighbor" are definitely not exclusive to the Christian religion. If any have read the Upanishads which is one of the Hindu religions sacred writings you will find the same exact philosophy and written shockingly close to the style and content as a good majority of the bible. The golden rule, the path to salvation etc. The thing that most Christians do not know or when they find out, refuse to believe, is that writings like the Upanishads were written centuries before the Christian bible.

    It's no great mystery why Christians do not hear about this in their churches. In fact, they are told these writings are pagan and evil and not to waste the time reading them. If they did, the average Christian would be dumbfounded to see the many similarities between the two religions. The similarities between the stories of Krishna and Jesus are also a real eye opener. Not to mention the similarities between Jesus and Buddha.

    I believe that how a person structures his spiritual belief system has more to do with where they were born and where they live than any kind of spiritual calling. If this DB was created in China or India the discussions would be similar but the mythical religious figures we talk about would be different.

    The thought that we were all born in sin keeps the meek, humble and gullible in line. We all have the ability to know what is right and wrong. Blaming Satan for things you do wrong or thanking god for things you do right keeps people from realizing the personal potential and self worth. Eliminating ones self worth and independence is the key to religious control. Own their minds and their bodies will follow.


  • rem


    Hope you're ok! haha

    Basically a non-falsifiable theory is a theory in which there is no way to prove it wrong. If you can't prove that something is wrong, how can you know that it is correct?

    Non-falsifiable theories are explanations that keep changing when a troublesome question comes up. Here is an example - a discussion between two people:

    • Alice: There is an invisible dragon living in my basement
    • Bob: How do you know?
    • Alice: Well, only I can see it - it's invisible to everyone else
    • Bob: Well, a dragon must weigh something... can I put a scale underneath it to weigh it?
    • Alice: Nah, it's weightless
    • Bob: Hmmm.... Perhaps it could jump in the pool and I could measure how big it is by the water displacement?
    • Alice: Actually, it doesn't have any volume or mass
    • Bob: Does it breath fire?
    • Alice: Oh yes!
    • Bob: Right, then can it start a fire for me?
    • Alice: Well, it's very shy. I doubt it will do that. Even if it did, it breathes special fire that doesn't have heat
    • Bob: hmmm...

    This can go on and on. There is no way to disprove that this dragon exists. Nothing anyone says can convince Alice that the dragon does not exist because she has defined it to be non-falsifiable. A non-falsifiable dragon has just as much worth as no dragon at all, since it cannot interact with reality. The same is true with other scientific theories or religious explanations that don't seem to have any way of being proved wrong. They are useless in their power to explain phenomenon and have an extremely poor track record of proving themselves right.

    The reason I brought this up is because it seems to me that Borgfree's explanation of the ransom doctrine has become non-falsifiable.


  • LittleToe



    Was that meant to be hurumph, or are you trying to get it on???

    The following is completely off-topic, but I'm pleased to share, since you ask:

    My take on the bible depends on what part of it you are talking about. Don't forget that it's actually a compilation of 66 books, rather than merely one. It also misses out a pile of Apocryphal and Pseudopigraphal writing and histories.

    The often-used quote from 2.Tim.3:16 refers to the Old Testament, IMHO, and more specifically to the Law and the Prophets, and possibily many (if not all) of the Psalms.
    I've grown in appreciation of the Psalms, since I left the borg. Psalm 119 seems to describe a good deal of human experience (including mental meltdown, if you read it all in one sitting ).

    I think that most of it was a genuine attempt to explain what had come into people's subjective experience (like John's description of his visions).

    I think the same can be said for the historical bits. I certainly wouldn't be so quick to disregard them, merely because there are conflicting contemporary writings. Like any historical documents, they ALL need to be examined carefully.

    I think that portions of it can be taken allegorically, even as esoteric wisdom.

    Word of God:
    I have had quite a number of "supernatural"(tm) experiences with the bible(s), where it's fallen open at a page and a specific verse has almost leapt off the page at me, in DIRECT answer to a question I was asking in prayer. I guess some would say that that makes it no better than Urim/Thummim, or Tarot cards. I personally believe it is far more efficient due to it's far more expressive dialog.
    If God is using it to speak to us, then maybe it is a matter of belief, but it's been effective (even astounding) in my life. I can't find a scientific explanation for it.

    Rules for life:
    A lot of the moral code is just common sense, especially for the time in which it was written. Much of it isn't especially original, given Hammurabi, but I think the Sermon on the Mount is pretty special (Matt.5,6).

    Can I get back to my popcorn now?

  • borgfree


    I think you may misunderstand some of my beliefs.

    What I am saying is that it is ridiculous to say that Christianity is the sole reason why people behave in a righteous manner.

    I do not believe Christianity is the sole reason people can behave righteously. I think however that God is the sole reason. I think He gave us a conscience. I do believe that in a totally Godless world people would act more like the Attila's and the Hun's.

    I think there is a great danger to much of Christian belief. Or Jewish. Or Muslim, etc. Any religion taken to be literally and 100% without error is a dangerous belief system. I'm sorry you fail to see this.

    I do see that. I do not agree with everything any religion has done in the past or is doing at present. I do think following the Christian scriptures (New Testament) is a good practice for everyone.

    Modern science has time and time again shown the Bible to be at odds with the facts. Biology, geology, physics, and at times, psychology all have wounded Scripture to the point where it becomes laughable to hold to a fundamentalistic view of the Bible

    That may be true. As I have stated before I have some problems with the Old Testament, I am reading material on that subject now.

    Now you have crossed the line into what can only be called unshakeable belief no matter what evidence or logic confronts it

    I do not think that is so. I am a firm Christian believer and make no apologies for that. There are countless books and endless information on the subject of faith, the bible, Christianity, etc. No one has yet proven, without a doubt, that God does not exist or that Christianity is wrong.

    I will apologize again for my posting habits, I am not deliberately trying to avoid anyone, my time is just limited.


  • rem
    I have had quite a number of "supernatural"(tm) experiences with the bible(s), where it's fallen open at a page and a specific verse has almost leapt off the page at me, in DIRECT answer to a question I was asking in prayer.

    Kinda like an extra-verbose magic 8-ball.

    Just kidding!


  • LittleToe


    I suspect you are generalising again
    The church that I usually attend has a respect for other works (it just doesn't hold them in the same regard as the canon of 66). Self development is highly prized, with many children being encouraged into medicine, law, etc. Studying is encouraged, along with respect for holding onto ones own conscienciously held beliefs, even if they conflict with others in the church.
    I think the key word I'm looking for is tolerance.

    IMHO the key to spirituality can be summed up in a few phrases:

    • Love IS the law
    • Fear only fear itself
    • Know thyself
    • Submit the ego
    • Connect to the divine

    Depending on what framework you use, you might want to alter how you would express the above. Neither is it a definitive list. I think there's a lot of merit in quite a number of beliefs held, regardless of whether they come from the East or the West.

    ~LT - unorthodox Christian~

  • LittleToe


    Kinda like an extra-verbose magic 8-ball.

    Summit like that - LOL.

    You seem to enjoy my subjective experiences, so let me just give you a quick, dirty and simple example of what I mean:

    One day I was praying for wisdom and understanding, and as I prayed I saw in my minds eye the spine of a book - it was bright blue.
    As I continued praying I walked through to my study and saw the self-same book on my bookshelf.
    It was the only book of that colour and turned out to be a copy of the "Jerusalem Bible" that I had purchased from the Kingdum Hall a number of years before (when we still paid for stuff), but had barely ever been used.

    As I continued praying I opened it, and it fell open at Ecclesiasticus 6, an Apocryphal work that was nowhere else to be found in the house, at that time.

    There are several bold headings on that page, and the one in the middle, which was the first one to hit my eye was entitled "Apprenticeship to wisdom".
    The contents of that section (v18-37) were just what I needed to read at that time.

    I can't explain that scientifically, and there were no humans involved in it (neither were any animals hurt during the process of this experiment ).

  • StinkyPantz
    unorthodox Christian

    You know what this word means to me? I think it's a copout. I think it's a way for you not to take responsibilty for your Christianity. Christianity in my eyes is just like Logansrun said plus more. Whenever someone has a valid argument against Christianity or the Bible you can claim to be unorthodox and that's a way to ignore certain issues. "Well, I don't accept that particular aspect of Christianity because I am unorthodox, that's my loophole."

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