Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast 540 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Fisherman
    Fisherman
    must be the destruction of Jerusalem.

    That is not true at all. The Parousia, the sign of the son of man, separating sheep and goats and the Millennium did not happen then.

    Sun and moon have become dark, And the stars have lost their brightness.

    And I will give wonders in the heavens and on the earth, Blood and fire and columns of smoke. 31 The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood Before the coming of the great and awe-inspiring day of Jehovah.

    For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those who escape, just as Jehovah has said

    13 Thrust in a sickle, for the harvest is ripe.

    14 Crowds, crowds are in the valley of the decision,

    Sun and moon will become dark, And the stars will lose their brightness. 16 And Jehovah will roar out

    Let the bridegroom go out from his inner chamber, and the bride from her bridal chamber

    It is a day of darkness and gloom, A day of clouds and thick gloom, Like light of dawn spreading out on the mountains

    Its appearance is like the appearance of horses, And they run like warhorses.

    SOUND FAMLIAR?

    What is the rest of the Bible implying. What are the verses you cited implying? Simply the destruction of Jerusalem for the second time?

  • Fisherman
    Fisherman

    So Scholar...are you saying that Jesus was warning people in his generation exclusively to pray that their flight not be in winter or on a Sabbath Day Correct.

    Sholar

    Don’t know the latest wt commentary on this scripture but everybody had plenty of time to escape in 66CE, pregnant women, babies, etc—4 years! so Sabbath and winter did not actually apply at all then. If the individual waited till the second time around in 70 to flee then the scripture applies literally. Latest wt commentary is no antitipycal as a general rule but this scripture can be spiritualized to apply to the Parousia.

  • waton
    waton
    So Scholar...are you saying that Jesus was warning people in his generation exclusively to pray that their flight not be in winter or on a Sabbath Day

    so.If scholar has any tracktion in Warwick, are we looking forward to new light on this?,

    like the one that

    Isaiah 65, " new heavens and new earth, building permanent housing, people living as long as trees, dying young at 100," is not the millenium, but was the prospect for the returning exiles from babylon?

    That is not true at all. The Parousia, the sign of the son of man, separating sheep and goats and the Millennium did not happen then.

    The only persons of the 1914 generation to fit the wt / bible description is a "sheep" that survived Armageddon, but later goofed up, not later than the final test.

    The members of the 1914 generation are not the anointed, certainly not overlapping groups either.

  • BoogerMan
    BoogerMan

    @ SCHOLAR: you said, "a 'great tribulation (without the definite article) would foreshadow... 'the great tribulation' in Rev. 7:13, 14."

    Are you saying that something which Jesus said would never be repeated, (Matthew 24:221) was going to have a another fulfillment, a greater one? If so, your org's dogma is telling people that Jesus was wrong.

    It's not reasonable to claim that different scriptures are discussing the same topic simply because the wording is similar.

    Acts 7:11 also speaks of a "great tribulation" but the surrounding verses and context eliminate any connection to Matthew 24:21.

    Contextually, tie in Revelation 7:14 with Revelation 2:22. The words spoken were about 8 minutes apart.

    Connecting statements from the same book of the Bible and from the same discussion, makes far more sense.


  • Jammer
    Jammer

    In response to Disillusioned JW and a few other comments,

    ...some who are TV evangelist theologians, say that in our modern times the temple will be rebuilt and later be destroyed by the anti-Christ. They thus teach that conditions will exist for a second fulfillment in regards to the temple being destroyed. I've seen a number of movies (which I think are based upon books by Tim Francis LaHaye, who was a baptist evangelical Christian minister, but is now dead) which depict this idea.

    Dispensationalism is the driving force behind most of evangelical Christianity. They say the Temple will be rebuilt is because the AC claims to be God "in the Temple of God".

    They use 2 Thes. 2, Daniel 9:24-27, and Daniel 11 for support.

    "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

    The dispensational scenario looks something like this.

    There's a pre-trib rapture of the 'saints' where the holy spirit is removed from the earth followed by a 7 year tribulation. They call the final 3 1/2 years 'the Great Tribulation'.

    The antichrist - a global dictator, then comes to power and unites the world. He makes a peace treaty with Israel and its neighbors - the first man to ever do it, allows them to build their temple and resume animal sacrifices, only to double-cross them have them cease in the Middle of the week/7 year tribulation....etc.

    There's are and have been a host of powerhouse dispensationalist. Lahaye, Jenkins, Tom Ice, Jimmie Deyoung, John MacArthur, David Jeremiah, Jack Van Impe, Perry Stone, etc. The whole thing goes back to John Darby. It gained a lot of steam back in the 60's & 70's and has become the dominate mindset of most evangelical, Baptist, and Pentecostal people today.

    Mathew 24 is Jesus's reply to Israel's plight during the final days of this 'age/world'.

    There are several prophecies both in the Old and New Testament that have never passed in the 1st century and even up to today. Celestial events are mentioned to occur during this time period that never have. We live in a technocratic age of artificial intelligence, a coming digital society. The great reset is underway ushering in the globalist agenda of the New World order. Digital ID's and currency are around the corner. Not to mention we live in an age of nuclear weapons.

    This is todays Joseph Mercola "Story at a glance"...

    STORY AT-A-GLANCE

    • The Great Reset involves the demolition and radical overhaul of several interlocking pillars of civilization: technology, society, economy, environment and geopolitics. Food and health also fall within these categories
    • Through control of these core pillars, the World Economic Forum (WEF) and its globalist allies intend to seize control of all the nations of the world and centralize all power and wealth
    • The WEF is an organization that profits from famine and disease; it uses tragedies and fear to further its own agenda. It intends to dictate what you eat, what you own and what you think, under the guise of building a “sustainable future”
    • The WEF-led cabal believes in transhumanist and technocratic principles, and the technocratic system requires extensive surveillance and artificial intelligence-driven technologies to keep everyone in check
    • Technocrats actually believe they’re better, more evolved than the rest, and this superiority gives them the right to decide the fate of mankind. They also reject the notion of free will. Once you understand this basic mindset, it’s easier to understand why they think nothing of stripping you of your freedom and ability to make choices for yourself
    • __________________

    I think this is prophesied in Daniel 7:7-8 which is NOT the antichrist...

    "After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

    I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things."

    The 7 headed 10 horned beast of Revelation 13 and 17 are 'different' end-time beast.

    "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." Mt 24:21
    1. Are you saying verse 21 applies to the 1914 generation exclusively?
    Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Mt 24:34
    2. Are you saying verse 34 applies to the 1914 generation exclusively?

    I am in a way but not totally. 1914 was around the time the New World Order began gaining steam. I understand a generation in this context the way Vines Expository Dictionary of New Testament words explains...

    The whole multitude of men living at the same time, Mat 24:34; Mar 13:30; Luk 1:48; 21:32; Phl 2:15, and especially of those of the Jewish race living at the same period, Mat 11:16, etc.

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    Hi Jammer,

    Do you conclude thst the following two verses apply to Christ's generation exclusively?

    "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." Mt 24:21

    Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Mt 24:34

    ((I am in a way but not totally. The whole multitude of men living at the same time, Mat 24:34; Mar 13:30; Luk 1:48; 21:32; Phl 2:15, and especially of those of the Jewish race living at the same period, Mat 11:16, ))

    Ok you apply both verses to the 1914 generation exclusively but include those living around that time period as Vines Expository Dictionary states.

    So am I correct in concluding that to you these two verses do not apply to Christ's generation?

  • Fisherman
    Fisherman
    For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." Mt 24:21

    Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Mt 24:34

    History proves this happened in 70CE. There is reason to believe that before the Millennium this prophecy applies to all the earth.

    Vines says

    Scholarly views quality in explaining language and interpretation of archeology and history and secular facts but not qualified as an authority in spiritual things such as doctrine and interpretation of prophecy although such commentaries as a reference may or may not be correct about spiritual things.

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    Hi Jammer,

    While I await your reply, I wanted to share an article on the progressive light the Watchtower has had on the 1914 generation. Perhaps you can select the one which coincides best with your views.

    PROGRESSIVE WATCHTOWER LIGHT ON “THIS GENERATION”

    In 1968 the youngest of the 1914 generation were 15 years old.

    "Jesus was obviously speaking about those who were old enough to witness with understanding what took place when the 'last days' began. ... Even if we presume that youngsters 15 years of age would be perceptive enough to realize the import of what happened in 1914, it would still make the youngest of 'this generation' nearly 70 years old today." (Awake! Oct 8, 1968 p13)

    .

    In 1978 the youngest of the 1914 generation were clearly not babies

    "Thus, when it comes to the application in our time, the "generation" logically would not apply to babies born during World War I. It applies to Christ's followers and others who were able to observe that war and the other things that have occurred in fulfillment of Jesus' composite "sign."" (Watchtower Oct 1, 1978 p31)

    .

    In 1980 the youngest of the 1914 generation were revised to 10 years olds.

    "As indicated by an article on page 56 of U.S. News & World Report of January 14, 1980, "If you assume that 10 is the age at which an event creates a lasting impression on a person's memory," then there are today more than 13 million Americans who have a "recollection of World War I."" (Watchtower Oct 15, 1980 p31)

    .

    In 1984 the youngest of the 1914 generation were reduced to babies.

    "If Jesus used "generation" in that sense and we apply it to 1914, then the babies of that generation are now 70 years old or older. And others alive in 1914 are in their 80's or 90's, a few even having reached a hundred. There are still many millions of that generation alive." (Watchtower May 15, 1984 p5)

    .

    In 1988 the youngest were babies that were born in 1914

    "Likewise today, most of the generation of 1914 has passed away. However, there are still millions on earth who were born in that year or prior to it." (Watchtower April 8, 1988 p14)

    .

    In 1995 age no longer was a factor in determining the 1914 generation

    Rather than provide a rule for measuring time, the term “generation” as used by Jesus refers principally to contemporary people of a certain historical period, with their identifying characteristics.” – Watchtower Nov 1, 1995, p.20.

    .

    Finally in 2010 the 1914 generation overlaps.

    “How, then, are we to understand Jesus’ words about “this generation”? He evidently meant that the lives of the anointed who were on hand when the sign began to become evident in 1914 would overlap with the lives of other anointed ones who would see the start of the great tribulation. That generation had a beginning, and it surely will have an end. The fulfillment of the various features of the sign clearly indicate that the tribulation must be near. By maintaining your sense of urgency and keeping on the watch, you show that you are keeping up with advancing light and following the leadings of holy spirit.—Mark 13:37.“ Watchtower 04/15, 2010 Article: Holy Spirit’s Role in the Outworking of Jehovah’s Purpose

    So which of the above best approximates your view of the 1914 generation that you "seemingly" acknowledge Matthew 24:21 & 34 exclusively apply to? Hopefully seemingly will soon be clarified.

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    This post bears repeating


    Re: OLIVET DISCOURSE; Parallels: Luke 21:7, Mark 13:4

    Is it possible that Matthew 24 (verses 1-35) was entirely fulfilled in the first century?


    Which "generation" was Christ referring to in Matthew 24:34? (the time text)

    - To which generation was Christ referring in Matthew 23:36?

    - If the judicial sentence & prophetic woe of Mat.23:36 applies to Christ's generation, why would not the exact same terminology in Mat.24:34 have the same application?

    CHRIST COULD HAVE INTENDED BY VERSE 34 THAT:

    a. "all these things" were to happen to the 20th century generation exclusively.

    - Impossible Lu.21:23-24 states that subsequent to great distress, Jews were to be led captive to all nations which occurred immediately after the 70 AD destruction.

    .
    b. "all these things" were to happen to both Christ's generation and our generation. (dual fulfillment theory)

    - Impossible: -these buildings and are already destroyed.

    - Impossible -Jews are not to be led captive into all nations again at Christ's second coming.

    - Impossible -Matt.24:21 precludes dual fulfillment.

    .
    c. "all these things" were to happen to Christ's generation exclusively.

    - possible only if it can be shown that

    • "all these things" declared before verse 34 actually
      did happen to the generation Jesus addressed ?


    QUESTION: Was Matthew 24: 1 - 35 entirely fulfilled in the first century?

    The answer is emphatically "YES"

  • Fisherman
    Fisherman

    So which of the above best approximates your view of the 1914 generation that you "seemingly" acknowledge Matthew 24:21 & 34 exclusively apply to? Hopefully seemingly will soon be clarified.

    Watchtower knows that they were wrong in their application of generation to 1914— but that doesn’t debunk 1914. And that doesn’t falsify that the Olivette has a greater fulfillment.

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