Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast 540 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Fisherman

  Hi Van

  Your flight" means that some in Christ's audience would experience the vengeance of God if they could not escape in time. Your organization acknowledges this.

  We know in hindsight that was the case in 70CE for those that failed to use discernment when Gallus surrounded Jerusalem. There were other variables that could prevent people from escaping even if they wanted to. Some that were preventable some that depended on the individual relationship with God. A pregnant woman had plenty of time to flee 66CE because the siege came in 70. If that is a pattern for us today there is a symbolic application.

  
  

  The context of the fleeing is not symbolic

  
  

  Fleeing is not symbolic. However, the 2nd seige of Jerusalem occurred in the Spring. The first siege by Gallus also applied to everybody inside Jerusalem at the same time and season so how could winter and Sabbath apply to only one The focus here is: the individual, his flight and prayer to God.
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  Jammer

  So can you identify the generation you believe Jesus was referring in Matthew 24:34?

  First FYI - Jesus said, "There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

  In my research I found that on the Temple Mount there were stones 'one upon one another' for a few hundred years after AD70.

  Look at things Jesus says in the chapter.

  "Take heed that no man deceive you."

  For THEN shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

  "For THEN shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

  This is probably the biggest sign...

  WHEN ye therefore shall SEE the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

  And this too...

  "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

  The disciples asked what for signs preceding the parousia.

  PAROUSIA - the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God.

  Jesus went through the trouble to explain which generation. He said it's the generation that SEES/witnesses the passing of the events he mentions in the chapter, and compares that time period/generation to the budding of a fig tree. The leaves budding represent the things he mentions in the chapter that precede summer, and Summer represents Christ return/Parousia is near.

  "Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

  So likewise ye, (In the same way) when ye shall SEE all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

  There are three different words for END and three different words for world in Mathew 24.
• 

  RolRod

  Rutherford began changing so many of Russell's beliefs that it caused a domino effect and instead of saying "Hey, waitaminute ..." he just kept going causing more of a mess.
• 

  MeanMrMustard

  This is a giant mess.

  Considering Jerusalem wasn't destroyed in 607, we can dispense with the rest.
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  Disillusioned JW

  Vanderhoven7, regarding your comment that the temple has been destroyed (with the exception the Western Wall, as mentioned by Jammer) some fundamentalist Christians, including some who are TV evangelist theologians, say that in our modern times the temple will be rebuilt and later be destroyed by the anti-Christ. They thus teach that conditions will exist for a second fulfillment in regards to the temple being destroyed. I've seen a number of movies (which I think are based upon books by Tim Francis LaHaye, who was a baptist evangelical Christian minister, but is now dead) which depict this idea.
  
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  Fisherman

  every time Jesus specified (hutos genea) this generation in all 4 gospels, it always referred to his own unbelieving generation. Van,

  Since the text encompasses the parousia it could apply to it too.
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  Vanderhoven7

  Hi Jammer,

  "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." Mt 24:21

  1. Are you saying verse 21 applies to the 1914 generation exclusively?

  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Mt 24:34

  2. Are you saying verse 34 applies to the 1914 generation exclusively?
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  Vanderhoven7

  Hi Scholar,

  <<Absolutely, a 'great tribulation (without the definite article) would foreshadow 'the Great Tribulation described in the next pericope, vss. 29-31 and 'the great tribulation' Rev.7: 14>>.

  No, you can't have it both ways. The tribulation (without the adjective great) of verse 29 is referent to the unrepeatable great tribulation of verse 21 which could not foreshadow a greater tribulation.

  21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.....

  29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
  

  Note Rev 7:14 is also about a "great tribulation" (without the definite article)
  
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  Vanderhoven7

  Clark on Matthew 24 verses 21 and 29

  Verse 21

  For then shall be great tribulation - No history can furnish us with a parallel to the calamities and miseries of the Jews: - rapine, murder, famine, and pestilence within: fire and sword, and all the horrors of war, without. Our Lord wept at the foresight of these calamities; and it is almost impossible for any humane person to read the relation of them in Josephus without weeping also. St. Luke, Luke 21:22, calls these the days of vengeance, that all things which were written might be fulfilled.

  Verse 29

  Immediately after the tribulation, etc. - Commentators generally understand this, and what follows, of the end of the world and Christ's coming to judgment: but the word immediately shows that our Lord is not speaking of any distant event, but of something immediately consequent on calamities already predicted: and that must be the destruction of Jerusalem.
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  Fisherman

  So what generation do you believe Jesus was referring in Matthew 24:34?

  We know for sure generation applied to his time in terms of time because the end came in 70CE. We don’t know how the word generation applies to 1914. We believe it does apply because generation in that verse also encompasses the Parousia.