Universal sovereignty on trial

by Factfulness 169 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • 2+2=5

    He’s the universal sovereign alright and he’s going to kill everyone and lock Satan up just to prove it.

    Still not convinced, he’ll let Satan out again and double down on the human executions! Thus proving he is the Universal Sovereign!

  • nicolaou

    Slim', you're wrong when you repeatedly say that we don't understand the problem of evil, that we can't reconcile the "contraction between God’s love and his power to act to stop suffering".

    We do and we can. It's only the believers unwillingness to accept the obvious answer that creates a false dilemma in the first place.

    It may be a problem you can't answer - I can answer it in three words: God isn't there.

  • humbled
    The problem of evil is very real, but God writes the end of that story as well.—Perry

    Perry, the horrors of suffering that go on wholesale around the world are overwhelming in their specific details .The days of gang rape , torture, blugeoning of an 8 year old Muslim girl herding horses is a sample of the personal evils that the God in its infinite wisdom passively gets to witness daily.

    If the god is truly wise then it would know that isome of us cannot believe there exists mystery so bizarre that the human mind in this world or any other should believe that a loving powerful god simply watches such suffering as that 8 year old endured.

    Do you know there are minors not yet in their teen who quite incredibly become pregnant when they survive such assaults that don’t kill them? They die later though. The baby can’t fit through their little girl pelvis.

    People speak for God. They say a lot of things.

    Personally l suspect some atomic force field that drifts around like the jet stream or an ocean current. sometimes good and sometimes not. Good, evil, Like the weather.

    I used to be intrigued with the story of the pool of Siloam You know that story where folks who needed healing would.wait by the pool, wait for .an angel to stir the waters . and you’d ‘pay someone to lift you down into it —and you just might get healed . Maybe. It could be that god is kind of like that. Maybe good hearted but limited. Weak but trying to be there for you.

    Maybe god is love. But that doesn’t mean it is strong enough to change things. Love doesn’t conquer all. It should try . . But it didn’t save that little girl. She suffered a long time. Her parents loved her. They said she was so innocent.

    I feel certain that a god of love is not all powerful. And so it weeps . it weep constantly. In fact it’s tears are what formed the pool of Siloam, I am nearly sure of it.

    The first reason god cries is for pity. Pity that it can do so little to help children in terror and pain. And secondly it cries for shame. The shame that humans could believe that a loving god would actually permit such a little child to suffer while possessing the means to stop it. Stop the suffering.

    .” Yes, god is watching us all. He knows our suffering. Yes, God just watches it happen.. Just watches. And is so full of love, and power and wisdom snd just watches.”

    But he will fix it later? That is what we say.. But god doesn’t say anything.. God cries.

  • slimboyfat

    I agree that we think we understand evil and suffering and that this logically excludes an all powerful and loving God. What I am saying is that our understanding cannot always be relied upon. And that there is at least the possibility that the creator of the universe knows better than we do.

    Just because we think we understand something doesn’t mean we really understand it. Take the example time. We think we know that time progresses like an endless flow, that what’s been has been and what will be is not yet. And yet scientists have argued that our common understanding of time is a kind of illusion and the reality is quite different.


    If we can be mistaken in our perception and understanding of something as close to us as our experience of time, then what else do we perceive differently? The Bible says we cannot always understand why God acts as he does, and we have no right to question his justice.

  • cofty
    there is at least the possibility that the creator of the universe knows better than we do

    That is not an excuse that is open to NT christians. It is central to christianity that god hasn't left us to figure it out. God revealed himself mankind through Jesus. Reality proves beyond ALL doubt that Jesus' revelation was a delusion.

    To continue repeating the excuse 'it's a mystery' in the face of reality is pathetic.

  • venus


    We may go wrong on the perception of time. But that doesn't mean we cannot have correct view of God. We are children of God, and He is our Father--both can understand each other perfectly because He is like an ocean, and we are like a drop. In qualities, God the Father and we the children are same, differ only in the quantum aspect.

    Religions succeeded in spreading wrong concepts about God (saying we are first enemies of God, and sonship is to earned .... through faith one of God's children etc); and it is they who say it is mystery when encountered with question.

  • slimboyfat

    The New Testament says that God is good and cares about his creatures. It also says that we cannot understand the mind of God, and that when his actions seem unjust we have no right to challenge him. It does not say anywhere, as far as I am aware, that God’s goodness is dependent on whether we understand or can justify how God acts. In fact it explicitly says the opposite (particularly in Romans 9) that God is just even if we are unable to see how that can be the case.

  • cofty

    Contradictions are not 'mysteries'.

  • slimboyfat

    Well of course. The point is that what may appear to be a contradiction to one person, may not appear to be a contradiction to another person, if that other person has greater knowledge or insight. It is rational to at least leave open the possibility that God has a better grasp on the nature of reality, goodness and justice than we do.

  • cofty
    It is rational to at least leave open the possibility that God has a better grasp on the nature of reality, goodness and justice than we do.

    That would be irrational unless you can first provide evidence for the existence of this god.

    Since nobody ever has, and since the claims made for god contradict reality, we can safely dismiss the whole thing and get on with life.

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