Universal sovereignty on trial

by Factfulness 169 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • cofty

    Perry - What are you on about? I am working from the christian definition of god and judging him by his OWN standards: not my standards.

    Christianity is not only objectively wrong, it is internally contradictory and it is there that I make my stand.

  • venus


    Account involving Nicodemus is found in John chapter 3 which is a fabrication. For example, Jesus has supposedly said: "No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.”—John 3:13

    It means only Jesus who descended from heaven has gone into heaven, no one else has gone into heaven! Jesus ascended into heaven at the end of his ministry, after his death. Hence how could he say he has ascended into heaven at the start of his ministry?

    When the writer of gospel of John wanted to put his words into the mouth of Jesus, see how unwisely he made it—he unwittingly gave a clue to the readers that it was fabricated.

  • Perry
    Hence how could he say he has ascended into heaven at the start of his ministry?


    Once you understand that there are three "YOUs" Just as there are three that make up the ONE GOD, it makes perfect sense.

    And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. - 1 Thess. 5: 23

    So, acording to scripture, you are constructed as three parts - that as a "whole" AND individually can be accurately referred to as "YOU". The Watchtower denies the biblical tri-partite nature of man and adopts a materialist definition. This is where many theological problems with the Watchtower originate.

    And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. - John 3: 13

    Clearly, Jesus was in two places at the same time. Paul also tells of a man who went to the third heaven.... another case of someone being in two places at the same time.

  • cofty
    Clearly, Jesus was in two places at the same time

    It's difficult to tell the difference between a genuine xtian apologist and a spoof.

  • Finkelstein

    and he eventually abandoned them

    Yes he abandoned them to choose instead lying corrupt American charlatans, known as the Watchtower Corporation /JWS.

  • Perry

    All ancient bible teaching Cofty; although not necessary. Just reading the bible and believing it leads to the same conclusion.

    This verse is connected to what Jesus had been telling Nicodemus, although the connection is not immediately obvious. The verse is cited in the Ante-Nicene commentaries of Tertullian, Hippolytus, Novatian, Archelaus, and is also included in the ancient Syriac Diatessaron of Tatian.

    Nicodemus understood Christ to be a great teacher and perhaps a prophet because of the miracles he had performed (John 3:2). In verse 13, Jesus is extending his dialog with Nicodemus to reveal that He is much more than a prophet. No mere man, he says, hath ever ascended up to heaven as he will.

    Theophylact (11th century Byzantine commentator) summarizes the Patristic interpretation of this verse as follows:

    Because Nicodemus thought Jesus was a teacher and prophet, the Lord now says to him, "Do not imagine that I am an earthly prophet sent by God. I came down from heaven as Son of God, and I am not from the earth. No prophet hath ascended up to heaven.* I alone shall ascent, as I descended."

    When you hear that the Son of man came down from heaven, do not imagine that flesh came down from heaven. (Apollinarius taught this heresy: Christ came down from heaven in the body and entered the world through the Virgin as through a channel.) Since Christ has two natures united in one hypostasis, or person, the names that refer to His human nature may also be addressed to God the Word; conversely, the names that refer to the divine Word may be addressed to Christ as man. Thus, in this verse, Christ calls Himself the Son of man, Who came down from heaven.

    The Lord adds the words Who is in heaven for a specific reason: "When you hear Me say that I came down to earth, do not imagine that I am no longer in heaven. I am here in the body on earth, and at the same time co-enthroned there with the Father in my divine nature.

    - Explanation of the Gospel of John; Chrystopher Stade, trans. (Chrysostom Press, 2007), p. 51

    It also may be worth pointing out that Christ is no longer speaking to Nicodemus only, but to all Jews. When He begins his discourse, he addresses Nicodemus only - in the singular:

    Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω σοι
    Verily, verily, I say unto thee

    In the same sentence, though, he shifts to the plural:
    οὐ λαμβάνετε
    and ye receive not our witness.

    The archaic King James English preserves the distinction between the singular and plural forms of "you" ("thee" and "ye", respectively). The distinction is lost in modern translations.

  • Coded Logic
    Coded Logic

    Perry -

    Do you believe that God actually caused a global flood that killed off most of mankind?

  • Ireneus


    Regarding John 3:13 there are very candid Theologians (like Willian Barclay ...) who categorically say this verse has never been uttered by Jesus, but it is own words of the writer. That's the sort of theologians we want having the guts to call spade a spade.

  • EverApostate

    Would the president of a country challenge a local thug, that he is the most powerful person in the country.

    That Would be too silly.

    But that's the way JWs are taught to believe

  • slimboyfat

    I agree we are rational beings to an extent. We seem to possess abilities that exceed other animals as far as we know. And we can understand and predict the natural world to a significant degree. But the fact that we are able to do this doesn’t necessarily (or rationally!) mean that we have unlimited powers to understand the world around us or the nature of existence. There may very well be limits to what we can understand. In fact I would put it stronger than that, there are almost certainly limits on the extent we can accurately understand the world and its nature.

    As humans we misunderstand and draw false inferences about the world all the time. Some people think they can sing when they can’t, or think they understand why someone did something when they don’t, or perceive a shape to be a shape it isn’t, or are convinced a short line is a long line because of the influence of others, and so on. The scope for misunderstanding and delusion in every day life is enormous. And if we can be mistaken about such mundane things, is it not reasonable to suppose there are things God can understand that we can’t understand? Like the nature of evil and the purpose of existence? It seems like a perfectly reasonable suggestion to me that God will know things that we cannot understand.

    The Bible teaches that God is good but it also teaches that we cannot understand his nature and that we have no right to challenge his justice or goodness.

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