Universal sovereignty on trial

by Factfulness 169 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • slimboyfat

    Cofty I know you have attempted to take standards from the Bible and apply them to God. That’s not the question. The question is why you think you are able to do so.

    The Bible indicates we are not in a position to judge God:

    40 The Lord said to Job:

    2 “Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him?
    Let him who accuses God answer him!”

    3 Then Job answered the Lord:

    4 “I am unworthy—how can I reply to you?
    I put my hand over my mouth.
    5 I spoke once, but I have no answer
    twice, but I will say no more.”

    6 Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm:

    7 “Brace yourself like a man;
    I will question you,
    and you shall answer me.

    8 “Would you discredit my justice?
    Would you condemn me to justify yourself?
    9 Do you have an arm like God’s,
    and can your voice thunder like his?
    10 Then adorn yourself with glory and splendor,
    and clothe yourself in honor and majesty.
    11 Unleash the fury of your wrath,
    look at all who are proud and bring them low,
    12 look at all who are proud and humble them,
    crush the wicked where they stand.
    13 Bury them all in the dust together;
    shroud their faces in the grave.
    14 Then I myself will admit to you
    that your own right hand can save you.

  • slimboyfat

    Paul also taught that we are not in a position to judge God’s actions that appear unjust in Romans 9.

    10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac.11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

    14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

    “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
    and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

    16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

    19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

  • cofty

    SBF - I have no interest in going round this again.

    Jesus revealed god to be love, defined as care for others.

    The facts prove otherwise.

    Find somebody else who will indulge your PoMo bullshit where words have no meaning.

  • nicolaou
    If God defines what is good, then on what grounds can we judge him? - Slimboyfat

    On the grounds that we are rational, autonomous, sentient creatures. On the grounds that we must not forever remain children but grow up and make decisions for ourselves.

    Also, if "God defines what is good" that still does not free us of the responsibility to decide whether we will obey or not.


  • venus

    Knowledge has often no effect on people. If it had, after Buddha everyone would have become balanced and spiritual because he understood the folly of accumulating and possessing things which one would not finish using in his life time when he was born as a heir to the throne.

    Hence God would not provide any knowledge through anybody--everyone has to follow his conscience.

  • ttdtt

    I think there have been a few dozen mistrials - only explanation why its taking over a 100 years :)

  • Perry


    So you are impressed with Jesus teachings? You do well. Nicodemus was also impressed at this departure from the religion of his day. However, this wasn't enough... three times Jesus told him that he must be "Born Again"; else he would never see, enter or inherit the Kingdom of God.

    This is a hard teaching. Not only must we be in agreement with Christ, but we must allow the formation of a new spirit within us, one born of God. Our hearts must be circumcised. This is somewhat painful, if only to our intellect and pride.

    Most of us are quite happy with our first birth and see no need for another one. But, Jesus also threw a bucket of cold water on some other common folks that were getting pretty excited about his teachings.

    John 6

    54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him...This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”...

    He (Jesus) said to them, “Does this offend you? ... 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing....

    66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

    Ecclesiastes 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

    Is. 64: 6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags

    Romans 3: 9 - What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

    10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

    The requirement of being born again (letting God in on the inside so that he can be the arbiter of right and wrong) is extremely offensive to our flesh.

    But even worse than that, is the requirement to "die as unto ourself". This requirement triggers an all-out war against God, from our flesh. It doesn't want to give up control.

    The bottom line is that as much as we like Jesus' teachings, we simply cannot essentially live them. God must do that for us, in us.

    We must believe God and then receive God. Believe and receive. OUR Works has NOTHING to do with it, "else Christ died for nothing."

  • nicolaou

    So much white noise

  • Perry

    True, for most of us Nick...until shortly before an imminent death. For many people then, it gets real clear real fast.

    But we don't have to wait till then; we can enjoy an "abundant life" and "rule in this life" now, as a member of God's family.

    I was never comfortable dying to myself. But, I did the math. Now I enjoy blessings from my father. I highly recommend it.

    Slimboyfat / Cofty,

    I do hope you all see the uselessness in continuing that argument. Cofty pretends to accept the premise (definition) of God as being Eternal, all Powerful, all-Knowing and all-Just. He uses the term "God" but doesn't accept the same definition that most everyone else uses. He uses a different god that he can assume superiority over.

    It is delusional. If Cofty would accept the dictionary definition of God, then his conclusion would contradict his premise.

    But Cofty usually gets offended when called on this contradiction and plows on asserting the impossible: Though not eternal, all-just and all-powerful himself, he is comfortable in denouncing that which is. This is called cognitive dissonance - holding two impossible beliefs that contradict one another at the same time.

  • OrphanCrow
    venus: When I first heard there are over 7500 variety of apple, I drew the conclusion that it is all because there is Father Figure that takes care of more than just the sustenance, and my faith in Him has only been reinforced further and further as the time passed. Yet the same knowledge may give different conclusion to another person.

    There are over 7500 different cultivars of apples.

    What that means is that those varieties have been developed by humans

    Don't credit "God" with all those apple varieties - that credit goes to horticulture and grafting

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