Universal sovereignty on trial (page 2)

venus

According to Jesus the so-called Sovereignty Issue can’t even take off because he has observed that some would always choose to do what is right, and others would always choose to do what is wrong whether God rules or not. (Mathew 12:35) Hence giving a perfect start is the only viable solution and to “renew” the system of things when it becomes decadent. (Mathew 11:28)

And also hereditary is not a factor because good children can be born to wicked parents and vice versa. For example, Manasseh was a wicked king of the Kingdom of Judah, yet he was the only son of Hezekiah who was a good king who was, ironically, born to his wicked father Ahaz.

slimboyfat

What if God doesn’t meet our understanding of goodness?

nicolaou

What if God doesn’t meet our understanding of goodness?

Dump him.

smiddy3

Correct me if I am wrong .

Jehovah had Sovereignty over humans only up until Adam and Eve "sinned" however long that took certainly a short time in Human history.

Once they did "sin" Satan became the ruler of the world the "God of this system of things" Apparently with Jehovah`s blessing

And he has done so for the past 6000+ years ?

Jehovah has only had a token of Sovereignty for a short time with Adam and when he chose the Israelites only and no other nations which surely shows he is also a partial God.

So how is his Sovereignty on trial if Jehovah gave it up in the first place and allowed Satan to usurp that position with Jehovah`s O.K. and approval ? for more than 6000 years ?

cofty

What if God doesn’t meet our understanding of goodness? - SBF

Then he is unworthy of our worship or even of our respect.

According to christianity Jesus came to make god known to humanity. He taught that god is love and he defined love in terms of doing good to others including your enemies.

Therefore god fails to meet his own revealed standards.

Coded Logic

I never understood the concept of "universal sovereignty" either.

If one believes the accounts of the Old Testament - it's not exactly like God stepped back and allowed mankind to rule himself. Quite to the contrary, he was constantly meddling in the worst possible way. For example,

God cursed the ground so man would have a hard time growing food.
Introduced disease and suffering to mankind.
Made pregnancy and birth a dangerous and painful affair.
Drowned almost every human on the planet in a global flood.
Scattered everyone across the globe and confused our languages so we couldn't work together.
Had a "choosen people" that he ordered to commit genocide against all the nations around them.
And visited a host of plagues, famines, pests, earthquakes, and sulfur and brimstone attacks all along the way.

. . . talk about stacking the deck against humanity. Maybe if Jaweh had stopped being a total dick for a second humanity might have done okay.

nicolaou

I suspect what Slim' is driving at is that we may be unable to understand God's 'goodness'. That "His ways are higher than our ways" (correct me if I'm wrong Slim').

The problem with this aged defense is that obedience doesn't make us good - just obedient.

Unless , as individuals, a society and a species we ourselves arrive at an understanding of what is good and live by it then we can never really be good at all.

The alternative - obedience to god - reduces us to the level of Abraham who would have unquestioningly murdered his own child.

Well guess what? We worked out decades ago that "I was just obeying orders" is no defence.

venus

The best thing I like about God:

Every artist puts his signature in a corner of his painting (his own creation)—something which God never did for Himself; hence the mystery surrounding Him.

I like Him for this characteristic of leaving the potential for surprise by not revealing Himself nor purpose of our life which means each one has to find out his purpose.

JWs provided the best joke for Jehovah in imagining the worst about Him through their teaching of Sovereignty Issue.

cofty

Venus - It's hilarious that you use the hiddenness of god as evidence for god.

The logical contortions of apologists knows no bounds.

nicolaou

I like Him for this characteristic of leaving the potential for surprise by not revealing Himself nor purpose of our life which means each one has to find out his purpose. Venus.

Which is just how the Universe would appear if there were no god in it.

Universal sovereignty on trial

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