God He stands outside of the universe, outside matter, outside time, outside of “being” as such.
Slim I stand outside the acceptable spectrum of reasonable conversation,
It must be ruddy cold for the pair of you - standing outside like that!
Universal sovereignty on trial
by Factfulness 169 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Diogenesister
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Finkelstein
Jehovah stands out because, as Paul says in Ephesians, all families of the earth owe their name to Jehovah.
But there were other ancient civilizations that said the very same thing concerning their god.
I think someone needs a spoonful of intellectual honesty.
Not everything either written or spoken by man is factual or truthful .
There a little lessen in intellectual honesty for Slim, now wipe your mouth and say thank you.
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Coded Logic
The idea that the universe and all its laws can exist without something outside of it causing it and sustaining it seems like special pleading.
Why would the universe need something "outside" of it "causing it"? I'm not aware of anything in science that necessitates this. Is there any good reason to think there is existence outside of space/time? -
slimboyfat
I think the idea is that, everything we observe in the physical universe seems to have cause and effect. So if we trace this back we either have an infinite chain of causes that never ends, or there is an ultimate cause that got the whole thing started. But the idea of an uncaused material cause that started the universe doesn’t seem to make sense since everything that is material has a cause. So maybe the ultimate cause is not material but something else, like consciousness, since we know that consciousness can affect the material world. And if the whole thing was started by a consciousness, then it sounds like what many people mean by God. Further, looking at the constitution of the universe, its laws and patterns, it seems to be the product of an incredible intellect. One that had the purpose of fostering the arrival of conscious creatures in mind. Additionally, there seem to be indications that we are intended to be, not only aware and conscious, but that we should enjoy what we experience. If suffering in the world is supposed to indicate no God, or a bad God, then what does the existence of pleasure in the world indicate? Viewed from this perspective, the idea of biblical God becomes more credible. Jehovah stands outside of space and time and caused the universe and everything and he intends the best for humanity.
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cofty
if the whole thing was started by a consciousness, then it sounds like what many people mean by God
No it doesn't.
What most people mean by god is an immanent being who is actively engaged in the word he created.
There is no connection between the ultimate cause that you are talking about and what most people mean by god.
You are knowingly engaging in equivocation.
If suffering in the world is supposed to indicate no God, or a bad God, then what does the existence of pleasure in the world indicate?
That the world is EXACTLY as we would expect if there was no designer ano purpose.
the idea of biblical God becomes more credible.
The god of the bible does not exist. If he did exist he would be a moral monster.
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slimboyfat
I didn’t mean to say that God is not immanent or engaged in the world, just that his role in causing the universe is what forces many to believe in him. It’s the starting point, but not the finishing point, for many trying to work out God.
I can’t see this world without purpose or design. How can we account for a universe that results in consciousness? Just a random accident? It doesn’t even make sense. Like the author of Hebrews says, it’s like saying a house is no reason to believe in a builder or intended habitation. You may say a house is not a living thing. That’s true. But what about the laws that govern natural selection, the universe and how it began? These things are not living things either and didn’t evolve from more primitive forms. The laws that govern the universe is like the house, in my mind, rather than just the physical material.
I think no one is in any doubt by now that you think the God of the Bible either doesn’t exist or is wicked. Just as you will be in no doubt that many hold the opposite view, and have their own reasons.
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cofty
Like the author of Hebrews says, it’s like saying a house is no reason to believe in a builder or intended habitation.
Oh for crying out loud. I am still embarrassed 20 years later that I thought that was a sensible argument.
20 years later you are still using it!
Just go back to the cult and get it over with.
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Brokeback Watchtower
If consciousness creates the whole universe, because what happens, happens only if consciousness is some how aware of it,, if no thing is aware there is no universe, waves collapse only when under observation, and let's not forget Einstein's spooky action at a distance with implication's of a non local universe.
So to me there is probably some truth to nonduality or every thing is really just one thing and you are that one thing or nothing or non self or just pure consciousness. And I think that could be called god if one feels so inclined.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/475973.The_Non_Local_Universe
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slimboyfat
Who knows, in twenty years time you may be embarrassed by reductive Darwinian and materialist arguments. Have you read Mind and Cosmos by Thomas Nagel yet? I am reading it again. What a fantastic book, surely ahead of its time.
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Finkelstein
I think you can confidently rule out the ancient Hebrew god as being the one and only real god.
You can evaluate and analyze the Genesis account with today's scientific knowledge to prove this was just mythological story telling.
......so back to square one about why the universe was created in the first place which eventually created us.
We have an enormous amount of information and knowledge compared to what the ancients had to derive at that very difficult question.
Perhaps we will never know clearly with concrete proof of that the answer as it might be too far past in time.
In the mean time lets put the ancient hearsay gods to rest and move on with the knowledge of what we have, I think humanity will be better off for the sake of our selves.