by Winston Smith :>D 97 Replies latest jw experiences
Winston,
It took a lot of guts for you to post that, man.
A hug for your wife. If you are able to afford it, take her away, even if it's just a three day weekend. You have to break the pattern of her hearing depressing thoughts at the meetings, if she's open to it.
I wish you the best.
Lisa
I don't have time to address all of the additional new thoughts tonight [but i did read them, thank you], but i wanted everyone to know that my wife & I have two appointments confirmed to see a therapist and psychiatrist. One before the week is up, and a follow-up next week.
Thx again for all of your support
Winston.
BTW, I am going to the meeting tommorrow w/my wife [ohh, maybe i'll get to do a talk on the F&DS or something fun soon?]. I was wondering if I should tell 'the plumber' that I took him up on his advice to help my wife with her sleeping problem. I could tell him that I went out and bought her a big bottle of sleeping pills.
He is probably so ignorant that he wouldn't even know that I was pulling his chain.
Maybe I should ask him since I am concerned about our personal saftey if he thinks that i should buy a handgun. Maybe keep it loaded and ready to go on the kitchen table just in case it is needed at a moments notice.
He'd probably agree, just as long as I continue coming to the meetings and read the WT.
Chimp Moron.
I can't believe sometimes how much I have adored these men. It's sickening.
These men are programmed robot &*^&*)^&*(_*&(s.
I have two sons who have had serious bouts with depression/suicidal thoughts; as the older was about to be df'd for behavior, I asked them if they could postpone it ONE WEEK so he could see a therapist, to help him through it, make sure he was ok. Their answer?
Any therapist worth his salt would see him day or night, so the answer is NO.
Son number 2 was df'd for behavior (he brought it to THEM!); I asked them before they df'd him if they knew he was depressed and had hurt himself seriously; they said that even he himself stated that he felt better when he made meetings and studied!!
THERE is your shelter from the wind, your stream in a waterless country. They have to follow procedure.
NO ELDER can possibly make ANY allowances for depression; it is not on their radar. THEY don't understand it and even if they did, the WT would not allow them to make any kind of allowance for it.
I HATE them, it is that simple.
WINSTON, you are doing a good job! I am sorry for your pain, and am thinking of you and your wife. Hang in there.
Winston
I know just what you faced when you had that meeting with the elders. In 1996 I developed acute clinical depression and attempted suicide. Spent six weeks in a pyschiatric hospital, also taking anti-depressants. I had been a JW for 21 years, at the time and a Ministerail Servant.
I appeared before a Judicial Committee, reproved. Counsel from elders was get out in field service more attend all meetings etc. The last thing you want when in depression is to be around people. Knocking on the doors of complete strangers and telling them how bad the world is, but there is a great future.
About 6 months later because things weren't going that well with me. They persuaded my wife to make me leave the family home as I was considered a "spiritual danger" to the family. She found a place for me in the next town, wasn't allowed to attend same congregation as family!! Same "advice" in new congregation, more field service, attend meetings. etc. What really shook me was that I thought this was "Jehovahs loving organisation" that they would help. It was almost as if I was an embarrassment to them and they wanted to hide me away.
After a year there I started on looking at the WT's history etc. it just happened one day. It took off and I looked at everything on the WT, books, internet. In August 1999 I attended last meeting. Since then wife my JW wife and two JW daughters have not spoken to me.
I have a son and daughter who DA'd and came to live with me over what happened.
While I was on the drift out, I would use material that was covered at the meetings, to discuss with my wife, and ask her questions, to help her see, what I was feeling, and get her thought process going. …she will start to notice the "lack of love", that you now know is false and conditional xjw_b12
xjw_b12,
there is a lot of good advice that you gave there. I’ll give it a try, probably after she starts getting some help though.
She at times already notices how people treat her different. It’s one of the reasons she is depressed. I would love to expose her the good people here to see what true love really is. Accepting you for who you are, not what they expect you to be.
make sure you get there late or just as it's starting, and leave the instant the last "Amen" sounds. Whisper the words "ice cream" in her ear before the last prayer. Everybody needs a reward for doing something hard! Nina
Well, we are perpetually late as it is, so that won’t be a problem. Leaving for ice cream before the ice cream stand closes is a good idea. Comfort food is always a strong impetus.
I’m glad you prefaced, “Everybody needs a reward for doing something hard!” with the ice cream comment. I was almost starting to think you were suggesting something else, which can be a pick me up also ;)
Im afraid you are beyond repair as far as the org goes RF
Well, that is sad now, isn't it? BTW, it's nice to hear from you RF.
The burden was then off my shoulders to try and "encourage" him. Whether or not I attended was finally all about me, not him. Finally I was able to also admit how much I hated all of it.
Odrade
It is funny you mention this because not too long ago she was missing more meetings when we were trying to go together. When I wasn’t going, it was almost a challenge to her to prove her love for Jah by attending every meeting.
there is no provisions in the case of your wife to help her out emotionally, its my way or the highway attitude
Will
Even though I expected that somewhat, I was taken aback by this brash attitude at our last elder meeting. I really didn’t expect it to be that calloused. I’m almost glad for my wife’s sake of seeing how ineffective they really are to help people in her situation.
I wish you all the best and give her my regards.
Guest 77
Thank you.
Check out BRCI.org NMM
Thanks for the explanation and the link.
May as well perscribe Crown Royal to an alcoholic to help him cure his diseaseStan
Hah! Isn’t that the Troof, eh *cough*, I mean, truth.
If you are able to afford it, take her away, even if it's just a three day weekend. You have to break the pattern of her hearing depressing thoughts at the meetings, if she's open to it. Lisa
I think she will be open to that. I’ll try to get something together that will be refreshing once we get the doctor visits established.
Any therapist worth his salt would see him day or night, so the answer is NOPistoff
That brazenly calloused attitude just amazes me still. Is your family faring better today?
Counsel from elders was get out in field service more attend all meetings etcGordy
I’m sorry for how things turned out for you Gordy. I gues the elders are handed the same mantra to ‘cure’ every ailment as JT mentioned earlier. Meetings, study, service. If things are tuff for you, then you must be failing in one of these three categories.
I hope you are doing better now.
Winston.
An update:
Wife is seeing a therapist and psychiatrist. Both are really good and caring with her. She is doing better and is no longer a danger to herself. She is taking the medication prescribed to her by the psychiatrist.
I go to all meetings with her when she goes. At times we don’t go, but she always decides if we do or not.
The elders are on a personal mission to ‘fix’ me it seems.
One wanted to get together with me to go over the Q I have regarding 587/607. I didn’t want to get together with him, but I have to, to appease the wife. I have 5 pages of personal notes that I made in answer to the WTS appendix in the ‘Let your kingdom come’ book, so when he asked me to get together with him, I thought we could go over that. I also summarized Alleymom’s KISS method for this subject for him to look at.
I had a huge headache and felt nauseous an hour before going there, which never happens to me. I just chalked it up to maybe I was coming down with something. Little did I realize my ‘spidey senses’ were tingling again to let me know trouble was ahead.
When we got together, I just showed up in street clothes at the KH thinking we were going to chat. The elder opened the KH back door in full business garb.
“Oh, I didn’t know this was a formal occasion. I guess I am a little underdressed!”
As I walk in, there is another elder!
Damn! How could I be so stupid? I was setup for an ambush.
So they ask what Q I have. I mention the 607/587 date issue. I wanted to see scriptural proof on why the WTS has gone with 587 rather than the 607 date.
Of course they can’t. He is obviously out of his element with this Q. The other elder doesn’t even understand the Q I’m guessing by the look on his face. At one point the elder just started reading the last three or four paragraphs of the appendix to me.
After he was done, I asked, “So, what was the point of that? I didn’t see any scriptures read that backed up the WTS 607 date.”
He just started babbling and the elder minor followed suit. The other elder then says that we have to accept Bible chronology over worldly evidence.
“Well,” I ask, “then show me a scripture that is more direct regarding the end of the 70 years than Jer 25:10, 11.”
He says sometimes that we can’t have all the answers and have to trust the F&DS. The main elder that called this together has left the room to get a book.
“Ok, but how did the WTS arrive at this date then? Was there a scripture that they used?”
“We just can’t expect all of the answers.”
“Well, are the writers of the WTS inspired then?”
“No.”
“Ok, then are they prophets?”
“No, they are not prophets.”
“Then where did they get this date from? It has to be in the bible, right?”
He doesn’t know what else to say. He just starts paging through books until his tag-team partner gets back.
The head elder comes back with the Proclaimers book. And he starts reading aloud some paragraphs talking about Russel and 1914.
WTF? I never mentioned 1914 or Russel.
I said to him if he has something specific to share out of the Proclaimers book that is pertinent to this Q, then please share it. Otherwise, please do your personal study on your own time and stop wasting mine.
Now they just start coming out with the Q’s to size me up.
Elder minor now asks if they answer this Q about 607, then will I start going out in FS again?
“I can’t answer that.”
“Why not?”
“It’s a complicated answer and I don’t have the time for it.”
“Well, just try to give us an answer.”
“I can’t. The answers are personal.”
He is getting frustrated. They want direct answers, now!
“I don’t understand. What do you mean by personal?”
“It means it’s personal, and It’s none of your business!”
“Whoa, I was just asking a Q.”
“Ya, well I answered it the first time. But you just keep coming back around full circle and start asking the same Q again. When I say that it’s personal, I’m kindly saying to back off. If you don’t heed that, I’m going to get hostile, understand?”
Now the head elder asks the craziest Q I have ever heard:
“Do I think that reading the bible is as important as identifying and following Christ’s brothers direction?”
I couldn’t believe he was asking me this. Most normal people would say the bible is the most important thing. But not these guys. They want me to say that the Bible is less important than identifying the ‘brothers of Christ’ and following the F&DS direction.
“I can’t answer that. It sounds like a trick question to me.”
“It’s not a trick Q.”
“Well, I must be stupid then, because I don’t understand your Q.”
He restates it a few more times, but I always just say that I don’t know and I can’t give him a direct answer.
“Well, millions of people read the Bible, yet do they have an accurate knowledge of the Bible?”
“I’m not sure what you want me to say here. They are both really important, right?”
I help them out a little by engaging in a little theocratic warfare. I reason in my head that even if the WTS isn’t the ‘brothers of Christ’, it still is important no matter who the brothers are, so I come right out and say that yes, it is more important to identify the brothers of Christ.
But he still doesn’t hear what he wants. I can tell. So I throw outright lies out there. I am sooo appreciative of the truths that I have learned from the brothers; like the truth about Hell, the immortal soul, about God’s government, yada, yada, yada.
“Ohh, that’s good then.”
They appear a bit relieved at this point.
Still, he hasn’t heard what he wants yet. And he asks if I will start studying with my wife out of the WTS literature again.
I told him that as the spiritual head of my family, I am doing what I feel is best for my family.
Then I look at the elder minor and say, “and I want to thank you for saying bringing that up at the last meeting. You mentioned that if I knew my wife was depressed for a while now, then I should do something as the spiritual head and not try to place the blame on the elders. And that’s what I am doing. Thank you for your advice.”
“And right now I am doing all that I can. Once we get past my wife’s health problems, I will deal with this Q at that time.”
So the he asks his final Q:
“Do you believe that the WTS is the F&DS, and that we have to follow their direction?”
I wanted to say yes, but couldn’t. I know if I saw yes, this elder will run back to my wife and say that I believe the WTS is providing the food for us today, and that we should start studying. If I say no, I’m an apostate and a danger to my wife. So I just say that I can’t give him a direct answer to this Q yet.
But he starts getting in my face, less than 12” away, and repeats with hostility the question 5 times over, with me giving him the same answer everytime.
“I can’t give you a direct answer yet. It’s not just that easy of a fix.”
“Well, I got the answer I was looking for.” he says with some arrogance.
I didn’t give him any answer, but not saying ‘yes’ means ‘no’ in these guy’s books.
He then says why he needs an answer from me.
Because, and now he slows his speech and is very careful about his choice of words, even though I am the spiritual head, my wife is a dedicated servant to Jehovah and the organization. If she is in spiritual trouble, it is the congregation’s responsibility to protect her as they see fit.
And there was the first hint at them encouraging her to get a legal separation.
Now elder minor asks, “Are you talking to others about this info? Because this type of talk is very negative and could be discoursing to others”
They are now looking to put the apostate label in me by saying I’m teaching others. I tell them I never have.
“I wish I never found out about that date. I wish I never knew the TRUTH of this matter. We’ll, not the truth, but I’d rather be ignorant about this info than to be troubled with these Q’s now. I wouldn’t wish this upon anyone else.”
Lie, lie, lie, lie, lie. I’ve learned quite well from the WTS and I am engaging in more theocratic warfare. I don’t need them to cut me off. Not yet. I gotta save my wife before I get out.
As the meeting wraps up, I make this quip remark:
“This isn’t an interrogation. We’re just trying to help.”
BS
There will be another meeting. This isn’t the last of them. One will have to be held on the premise of giving me answers to by question on 607. So I got prepared:
Right after the meeting, I ran to the store and followed Elsewhere’s advice and got a micro-cassette recorder, lot’s of batteries, and hours of audio tape.
Winston.
I want to break their fucking legs.
I haven't felt this much rage against the machine since you first posted this a month ago.
Winston,
I just read your first message and am completely blown away! I have experience in this area so can definitely sympathize with you and commend you on telling the elders off. It is absolutely the worst thing in the world to tell a suicidal person that they are feeling that way because they are simply not good enough.
I am going to read the other messages in this thread, but I may PM you... I'd like you to know that I'm available if you ever want to talk... (phone, email, etc)
(((winston)))
horrible, horrible, horrible. exactly who do they think they are?!?!?! >:(
Oh, Winston, I am so sorry!!! You're doing great with your wife, though, and I'm glad she's feeling a little better.
You know, if you want to dissimilate some more with them, you could answer every question with a tearful, "I can't deal with this right now -- I have to think of what's best for my wife. I will address this issue at a later time, when she is feeling better. I'm sure you understand."
And if possible get that asinine comment of theirs on tape, the one about her spirituality being THEIR responsibility. You could ever so sweetly threaten them with a lawsuit on the grounds of alienation of affection if they dare to interfere with the relationship of husband and wife.
Okay, for you I recommend a good single malt Scotch. Ice cream ain't gonna cut it for this one!!!
Love,
Nina
