The dubs are a human organization. That's what the book claims and proves
Yes, it most certainly does. To a distressing (for me) degree.
Rosemarie
Ray Franz.....LIAR?
by integ 138 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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berylblue
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Ron1968
To add my 2 cents here, Ray didn't grab the spotlight after he was df'd. If he wanted money and publicity, he would have done all sorts of interviews and been in headlines for weeks, etc... Also, the man did need to support himself and used publishing to do it. He had a small operation. He was not getting rich off the book.
Ron
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JT
So because you say that it couldn't possibly be true that I asked this questions
SOJ
If you go back and read my post you will see I NEVER SAID THAT YOU DIDN;T ASK THE QUEASTIONS ABOUT THIS CASE
what i said and i will explain it to you again!!!!!!!!!!--- was the following:
Anyone who is "brazen" enough To ask ANY ELDER about a judical case is viewed by elders as being completely OUT OF THEIR PLACE
CASE IN POINT - even among the elders in the SAME HALL a judical case is NOt to be discussed among those not serving on the judical commitee-
and all elders know NOT TO ASK ABOUT JUDICAL CASES THAT they didn't serve on-
So when you stated that you "Questioned" some of the most powerful and important men in the Organization about the Ray Franz Judical case handled by the Service dept, ever former elder on this site along with anyone who reads this thread knows that the asking about Judical mattters is OFF LIMITS
so while they may have not brushed you OFF TO YOUR FACE - you can rest assured the answer that they gave you REVEALED nothing about the case- in other words my friend THEY JUST BLOWED YOU OFF
and the mere fact that you DON'T KNOW THAT IS SAD
as i stated before --the fact that judical cases are not discussed involving regular publishers - I know DAMN well they would not discuss with some "LOW Level" publisher the details of Rays Case
If there is one thing i Know my man and that is organizational procedures- Unless you are a member of the Service Dept Committee there is no way in the world you would get a reponse on the Ray Franz issue other than a BLOW OFF COMMENT FROM THESE GUYS
I hate to hurt your feelings but the fact is while you may have asked them about it, you can rest assured they blew you off
when i was at bethel - and you can ask any former or current bethelite -- at bethel they constantly tell you that INFORMATION IS ON A NEED TO KNOW BASIS-
WHEN i worked in the factory printing new releases for the summer convention- i could be kicked out of bethel and i know some guys who did
FOR MERELY TELLING THEIR ROOMATE THE NAME OF THE RELEASE and it was tracked back to them
and why cause their roommate had no need to know that infor is how the org viewed it
so for you to run that Fifty Cent line on us about "Yes I asked the Brothers at bethel about the ray case and they told me so and so"
like i said I wanted to laugh at your Silly Behind
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Gamaliel
SOJ and JT,
I missed this thread previously so sorry about my timing. SOJ, I think that you may actually still have a chance of getting the other side of the story. You'd have be asking the questions sincerely and the people you are asking must realize that the question has become important to you because Ray has made it public. Otherwise JT is right; it's just a private judicial matter, and none of your business.
JT, you are definitely correct that the general response will be to try to make SOJ realize that there is nothing to worry about; the org is in Jehovah's hands; don't get overly concerned over what any former member has written; etc. etc. But there are definitely a couple people on SOJ's list and Swingle especially who might be willing to make a statement that will change SOJ's world forever. I would recommend to SOJ that you go to see Swingle with a specific question rather than a general one. Something like, "Is it true that you disagreed with how Ray Franz case was handled?" Even that is too general, but you would likely be surprised at the answer. How about "Do you consider Ray Franz an apostate?" But ask him about something specific that truly bothers you, or something that you personally don't believe is true from Ray's book. If you ask the question directly, the Swingle I knew would answer it. In your case, if you know him as you say, I would bet that he would at least, "not deny" anything from CoC.
For example, SOJ, maybe you don't believe in the 1957 vs.1914 "sign" proposal by Schroeder. (Most everything else is verifiable through lots of other means.) I don't know what Schroeder would say now about the proposal, but I can swear, fwiw, that there was a time when he was rather proud of this proposal. I was doing some research on other matters for Schroeder at the time, and although Schroeder dropped hints of Sputnik as the primary "sign in the heavens," I didn't know the extent of the proposal with respect to the "generation" until I read Ray's book. I was shocked, but I understood it perfectly.
If you truly question some of Ray's info specifically, I'd bet there are plenty of us who can add supplemental evidence or find someone who can help. For example, C Sanchez, of CoC fame, is a good friend of mine who lives only a few blocks from me. If you spoke with him you'd realize he has absolutely nothing to gain or lose in telling you truthfully about his JW experience. It's completely behind him. He can verify a lot of Ray's info first hand.
Two members of the Writing Department gave my wedding talk, btw. Both are still officially JWs, one retired to Patterson, and both could confirm any specific point from Ray's book except the nature of those GB meetings themselves. One of them, F Rusk, would do it most unwillingly, but I'm pretty sure he wouldn't lie if you had a specific question. The other, Jim N, who I could try to put you in touch with, is much more in tune with the conflict between "truth" and "organization".
Also, there are other people mentioned in Ray's book that, though inactive, have never officially left the JWs including a couple of once very active brothers from Writing. Some are good friends with people on this board. Also, my roommate at Bethel during the time of Ray's departure, was an elder for many years, and a good and active JW until only a few months ago, and he would have offered supporting evidence for Ray's claims, even while he was a JW. Interestingly, he knew most of the stuff in the book even though he would never actually look at the book until about just a couple years ago (to protect himself from an elder's direct question, if it ever came up). My own brother never officially left the JWs, although now inactive. (Karl Klein handled his witch hunt so ineptly, unscripturally and unethically, that your respect for the GB would be forced to drop a notch or two. My brother "passed" and remained in good standing, but then drifted off.)
You must know that it is very difficult proposition to ask current JWs to tell you what they know about this matter. Most any who ever tried were dealt with harshly. Most of those who knew the most left on their own without being asked. Just knowing some of these facts first hand was enough to put the fear of man in most JWs, including people like Ciro A (who is another person, now in Writing, who was very depressed over the unscriptural way Ray's case was handled.) I told my own father that I couldn't tell him what I knew because he too would likely have to leave the Org and I knew that wasn't what he wanted. Most JWs who know, yet have chosen to remain JWs for their own good reasons will not likely feel that telling you would do you any good.
Ray himself is still very accessible, which is why I suggested you ask Swingle if he thinks Ray is an apostate. If he says what he believes that "No, he's NOT an apostate from Truth, although technically he IS an apostate from the JW organization," then you might feel more free to contact Ray directly without the guilt or "fear of man" hanging over your head. Ray could offer you a lot of facts that you could still verify on your own. Some of these people are getting up in years, so if you are serious about getting both sides of the issue from people who really know, I think you should really go for it before it's too late.
Gamaliel
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ignored_one
Interesting topic.
It's always nice to find out what was going on behind the scenes.
So SOJ. Managed to get in touch with anyone again?
Ignored One.
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minimus
Gamaliel, I find your experiences fascinating. What I don't understand though is why any GB wouls talk to anyone that might have a question regarding Ray Franz. I would think that even if SOJ knew him as he claims, he would never be given a straight answer. Regarding the Sanchez couple, I would think that anything they say would be considered as questionable from an active JW. Although, it seems that SOJ has a lot of "spiritual cracks" in him. Tell me, did you know Maximus, too???
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AlanF
Gamaliel, didn't Swingle die a year or two ago?
AlanF
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minimus
You're right Alan; he's dead. SOJ better hurry up!
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Gamaliel
AlanF,
I hadn't heard about Swingle dying. I'm very sorry to hear that. He is one person who had actually talked to a few people (me for one) and said what he thought about the Franz incident, and evidently he had also talked to SOJ.
minimus,
What I don't understand though is why any GB wouls talk to anyone that might have a question regarding Ray Franz. I would think that even if SOJ knew him as he claims, he would never be given a straight answer.
Swingle is/was an exception. Well actually many people would be surprised at what the GB are willing to talk about if the question seems sincere. A lot of people couldn't imagine AlanF going into Bethel fairly recently to talk to one of the writers. I happen to know for a fact that he did, because I talked to him just a few hours afterwards. I have been DA'd for years and yet have talked to many at Bethel who know my "condition" yet seem to ignore it.
Gamaliel
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karsnow
I have just read the book. I believe every word he says. There is no reason for him to lie, though the organization would like you to think he is. If you think he is lying then disprove any even one of the findings. I believe he has earned the credentials to speak out. It is so interesting that the typical programmed response from JW's is to dis believe his findings. So the organization is wrong on so many points, so they miscaluculate times and dates, so they police you inside your private homes, so they are double standard, their excuse is always (when changing policy) "things have been brought to light" BS! They have way to much control on peoples lives. I think it is horrible for ones to believe whatever they are told without even researching, The WBTS is not inspired - the governing body are not prophets, just try once to think on your own and see how far you get.