Need Help: My Correspondence with the Headquarters

by Lobsto 154 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Doug Mason
    Doug Mason

    CTR taught that the Parousia had taken place in 1874. He said there would be a 40 year Time of Trouble, which would end in 1914 with the Kingdom of God on earth under the Zionist Jews. That's why he called his magazine "Zion's Watch Tower" and "the Herald of Christ's presence" (meaning 1874). At one stage, Russell expected his church to be glorified to heaven in 1910, in preparation or the incoming Zionist rule.

    Rutherford hung onto the 1874 Parousia until about 1930.

    They used dates such as 538 BCE for Babylon's Fall, changing it to 539 only after Rutherford's death, with Parker and Dubberstein providing the detailed dates for the period in question, including the 539 BCE date. Since P&D is correct for 539, their other dates, which might be out by only one day, the WTS is very selective in what it accepted.


  • Finkelstein

    Rutherford hung onto the 1874 Parousia until about 1930.

    Not surprising Doug since Rutherford absorbed whatever Russell taught, he too was not an academically trained bible scholar but he did have control over the Watchtower Publishing house.

  • Doug Mason
    Doug Mason

    I have been asked by Scholar to vouch for him.

    We have enjoyed several friendly Skype sessions and I have found him to be firmly convince in his ideas. He is well read and as he has indicated, has undertaken formal studies in related subjects.

    We have agreements on some things while disagreeing on others.

    He appears to be firmly fixed and convinced with his position but I have no understanding of his background to know the reasons for his stubbornness. I accept that Scholar believes he operates with integrity and that he is honest to himself.

    I find his contributions useful, inasmuch as they enable others to see the weakness of the WTS's typical arguments.

    The real person who needs to be the focus of interest has the initials RF (and these are not Scholar's initials).


  • scholar

    Doug Mason

    The date 537 BCE has been well established and explained by the celebrated WT scholars in older and current WT publications. The key Bible references which establish the year chronologically and historically are the following: 2Chron.36:22-23; Ezra 1:1;3:1-6. Such texts provide the framework of key factors which enable one to locate such in an appropriate Calendar and equipped with the relevant facts and history one can easily demonstrate or prove that 537 BCE is the most likely or available candidate for the Return in 537 BCE.

    You need to be mindful of the fact that Bible Chronology is about Methodology and interpretation within the framework of known History so do not expect something in the order of the 'Jerusalem Post' along with Photos or interviews of the Returnees dated Oct 1, 537 BCE.


  • Doug Mason
    Doug Mason

    Hi Finkelstein,

    Rutherford turned the organisation upside down during the 1920s, almost causing it to totally collapse. This included dropping the "Palestine Hope" and the Pyramidology. You will know about 1925. He invented the term "Jehovah's witnesses" in the early 1930s applying it only to the Elect.


  • Doug Mason
    Doug Mason


    So you are unable to prove 537. Most interesting.


  • scholar

    Doug Mason

    Thank you for your kind words and reference as to my character.

    My qualifications for those who are interested are the following:

    Bachelor of Arts- Deakin University majoring in Philosophy and Religious Studies

    Bachelor of Arts- Honours, incomplete-Deakin University- Philosophical Studies

    Master of Arts - University of Sydney- Studies in Religion

    Now, Doug, you say that my contributions expose the weaknesses of WTS's arguments, if this is so could you be more specific and list such accordingly so that I may respond.


  • scholar


    No, 537 BCE is well proven for if not then Why not? Do you have a better candidate?


  • johnamos

    Quote - try to improve your comprehension skills which are lacking as shown also by your poor understanding of the Society's reply - End quote

    LOL!!! Sure thing, I will try to improve. Tell me please though, where have I shown a poor understanding to the 'Society's' reply as it relates to the excerpts that I am citing from them?

    The Society states that the 70 years at Jeremiah 25:11,12 represents Babylon's greatest domination period:

    [Isaiah’s Prophecy 1 p. 253-254 par. 21 Evidently, the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination—]

    Jehovah said that when those 70 years have been fulfilled he would call Babylon to account:

    [Jeremiah 25:11 And all this land must become a devastated place, an object of astonishment, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.”’12“‘And it must occur that when seventy years have been fulfilled I shall call to account against the king of Babylon and against that nation,’ is the utterance of Jehovah,]

    The Society shows that Jehovah called Babylon to account in 539:

    [8-1-81 WT p. 27-28 - “The idol-worshiping Babylonians now were in line for God’s judgment to be executed upon them. That happened in 539 B.C.E. when Babylon was overthrown by the Medes and the Persians.”]

    Based on that I am showing that the 70 years are from 609 to 539, so please with your far more superior comprehension skills than I, tell me what I am not understanding based on what you are reading above.

    Also, PLEASE answer these two questions:

    Was Babylon the 3rd world power for 90 years or 70 years?

    Did the nations serve Babylon for 90 years or 70 years?

  • LeeT


    I too did the course a couple of years ago, though uncertificated and without purchasing the book. I'm an impoverished cheapskate. I still read all the recommended readings I could find and more besides plus the video transcripts. I was indeed enjoyable.
    If you still have copies I'd love to read your mini essays arguing for the complete depopulation of the land for a period of 70 years, an idea that flies in the face of one of the central themes of the course.

    "Do any of these texts shed any light on the 70 years"
    I've not read many of the several thousand texts listed here. This doesn't look like an especially useful list to use unless you want to exhaustively read up on a particular year for clues and need all the archive numbers. There seem to be better ways of working. I'm yet to figure out how to navigate my way to specific translations and find many of the museum and archive cataloguing systems somewhat confusing.

    But, yes, in outline the list does shed light on the 70 years. Prior to this the best list of texts I had was Boscowan or Pinches (I forget who, one of the late Victorians who worked on the Egibi Archive) which had a much, much shorter list of something over 100 texts ordered by date. That in itself made explaining the lack of tablets of the missing Kings the JW's assert must have existed incredibly unlikely to have been a random occurrence. This list puts a stake through the heart of the JW case, nail guns the coffin lid shut, encases it in titanium and blasts it into space.

    625 BCE (WT date for Neb yr 0) -539 BCE = 86 years of history according to the WT scholars.

    Total number of dated texts from the reign of Nebuchadnezzar II: 2826
    Total number of dated texts from the reign of Amel-Marduk: 167
    Total number of dated texts from the reign of Neriglissar: 249
    Total number of dated texts from the reign of Labashi-Marduk: 12
    Total number of dated texts from the reign of Nabonid: 3910

    Covering 66 years of known reigns.

    Total number of dated texts from the reigns of known Kings in period = 7164
    Total no of dates texts from unknown Kings the WT asserts must have reigned = 0

    If the WT is right and these texts are distributed randomly throughout the 86 year timespan they claim they cover, what are the chances of having 20 years with no hits out of a sample size of 7164?

    Please check my maths.

    No of combinations for choosing 66 "hit years" from 86 =
    For each combination, the chance of randomly obtaining one of the 66 'hit' years in an 86 year timeline = 66/86

    For 7164 tries the chances of them all being 'hit years' =
    18,293,741,700,978,245,355 * (66/86)^7164
    = 5.35 * 10^-805
    That's a pobability with over 800 zeros before the decimal point.

    Conclusion. To assert that tablets from the missing years "might just turn up on a dig" is laughable at this point.

    So "do any of these texts shed any light on the 70 years?"
    Yes, none of them are 'missing years' between the 1st of Nebuchadnezzar II and the last of Nabonidus.

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