WoMD ... so where are they? (page 31)

Realist

aha i see.

it will be interesting to see pictures of the vehicles. probably a truck with a simple fermenter inside.

as i said, it was probably wishful thinking.....im sure even if international inspectors label the trucks as bio labs, there will still be people claiming we planted them there. here was the previous article on the find...i thought i had given you this? anyhow, its funny how the trucks match powells description.....must be a wild coincidence.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/05/13/sprj.irq.mobile.lab/index.html

aa

Realist

dubla,

yes, i think you had given me the link.

now with all due respect...the existence of a lab - even if able to produce bioweapons - does not mean bioweapons indeed existed! every university with a bio department has equipment that could be used to produce bio weapons.

also, if the finding would be substantial bush and co would have made a big fuss about it already.

dubla

realist-

now with all due respect...the existence of a lab - even if able to produce bioweapons - does not mean bioweapons indeed existed! every university with a bio department has equipment that could be used to produce bio weapons.

with all due respect, there is a colossal difference between universities having equipment that could be used for such purposes, and having a mobile laboratory that could have no other conceivable use than the production of bio weapons. but, only time will tell if thats the case or not. i just think your example is a bit suspect.

also, if the finding would be substantial bush and co would have made a big fuss about it already.

my guess is that theres a fear of "crying wolf" too many times....which is exactly what the administration has been accused of already. at this point, i would speculate that only confirmed evidence (which is no doubt why international inspectors are being called in, and this is a huge step im sure youd agree) will be ballyhooed.

aa

Realist

dubla,

which is no doubt why international inspectors are being called in, and this is a huge step im sure youd agree

i absolutely agree!

since effective bioweapons are very hard to produce the whole thing is just very suspect in my opinon.

by the way...you said you would revise your thinking if no WMD were found in iraq. how much time do you give the inspectors to find something and how much material would it have to be for you to be satisfied with the bush admin and with what powell said infront of the UN?

dubla

realist-

by the way...you said you would revise your thinking if no WMD were found in iraq. how much time do you give the inspectors to find something

unlike the skeptics, i really dont have a timeline in mind. we just lost more soldiers in combat (in iraq), and i realize that the search for wmd is only a piece of whats taking place in iraq right now. as ive already stated, one conservative estimate i saw had the search lasting until at least september, in order for it to be thorough, so i suppose if youre looking for deadline, that could be a preliminary one.

and how much material would it have to be for you to be satisfied with the bush admin and with what powell said infront of the UN?

how much material? enough for iraqs weapons declaration to be proven a lie (ooops, it already was proven a lie). any evidence proving there were wmd there prior to the war would suffice for me......all the skeptics have said iraq has zero wmd........so it doesnt take much to prove there is more than zero.

as far as powell goes, you know ive never based any of my beliefs on his presentation, and ive repeated that many times. the only real reason ive been discussing it, is that simon based a large part of his argument/complaint on this presentation, so i merely took the time to debunk that argument.

while we are on the subject, you said that if trucks were found that matching powells description, you would agree that the rest of his report would gain considerable credibility.

aa

searchfothetruth

E-mail Story

May. 26, 2003. 01:00 AM

Weapons hunters abandon outdated leads
Teams begin gathering own intelligence on arms in Iraq

`It never occurred to anyone that we wouldn't find any'

DAFNA LINZER ASSOCIATED PRESS

RUTBAH, Iraq—Frustrated weapons hunters are turning away from outdated U.S. intelligence leads, which have failed to turn up any evidence of chemical, biological or nuclear arms in Iraq after 10 weeks.

Teams are now moving toward their own intelligence gathering, based on interviews with Iraqi scientists, factory workers and even neighbours who lived near shadowy operations once run by Saddam Hussein.

The switch comes at a time of lowered expectations and increased frustration among the searchers. U.S. President George W. Bush has said he began the war to disarm Saddam. But there has been no sign of either the ousted leader or the weapons he long denied having.

In the war's early days, American officers said they expected to find such huge stockpiles of unconventional weapons that their main concern was whether they had enough people to destroy the materials.

"It never occurred to anyone, not even for 10 seconds, that we wouldn't find any," said Capt. David Norris, who heads Mobile Exploitation Team Charlie.

The team — one of four originally assigned to analyze evidence of weapons of mass destruction — is no longer part of the search. Its criminal investigators, linguists and counterintelligence experts are now looking for evidence of crimes against humanity that Saddam's regime may have committed.

The team has stumbled on some documents it hopes may help investigators piece together cases against the ousted leadership. But Norris said only a few of the 30 sites they've visited have produced results.

Two other teams are still involved with the weapons search, though no longer exclusively.

The teams had been working under the 75th Exploitation Task Force. But their work will soon fall under the Iraq Survey Group, a new Pentagon effort that will deploy in Iraq in coming weeks and take charge of investigations into everything from potential weapons to Saddam's suspected terrorist connections.

The search leaders hope intelligence tips will improve.

"The frustration level is increasing as we keep getting constant negative results," said Lt. Col. Keith Harrington, 42, who spent years in the Special Forces before joining the Pentagon.

"Intelligence needs to play a main role here," he said at the team headquarters in a windowless, concrete cabana along a man-made lake near Baghdad.

More than a dozen officers and soldiers interviewed recently complained about the quality of information they've been given.

"The initial intelligence we got was old, and the target folders are designed more for internal analysis than site exploitation," said Col. Tim Madere, senior officer for unconventional weapons with the Army's V Corps.

Col. John Connell, who will oversee the survey teams under the new set-up, said the task force will "bring in people with the background to attack sites more comprehensively."

Last week, one team began interviewing nuclear physicists in their Baghdad homes. Norris' team is questioning neighbours who lived near intelligence installations. And Harrington asked his team to develop questions for site managers and other Iraqis they come across.

In other developments:

E-mail Story

Realist

dubla,

yes i heard several soldiers were killed by attacks over the last 3 days. very unfortunate for their families.

ooops, it already was proven a lie

when and how?

for me the whole thing revolves around the credibility of the US admin. thats why i asked you about powell.

you said that if trucks were found that matching powells description, you would agree that the rest of his report would gain considerable credibility

powells claim that there are WMD in iraq would gain some credibility. certainly not much but a little. as to his reposrt...as you know part of it was debunked as 12 year old student paper already the very next day!

dubla

realist-

when and how?

almost immediately after the declaration was given to the u.n., undeclared warheads were found. there were a few other violations if i remember correctly (unmanned drone?), but without rehashing everything and doing even more digging, thats the one that stood out at the beginning, and it only takes one lie in the report to negate the whole thing, imo.

for me the whole thing revolves around the credibility of the US admin.

and for me, its all about past evidence of wmd (iraqs own admission) and the lack of ability to show they had been destroyed.

aa

dubla

realist-

btw.....

powells claim that there are WMD in iraq would gain some credibility. certainly not much but a little. as to his reposrt...as you know part of it was debunked as 12 year old student paper already the very next day!

thats not what you said.....i specifcally asked you about the credibility of his report, not just his "claim that there are wmd in iraq". here was my question:

i just have a question here......what if (now bear with me here, its a "what if" question) the trucks found recently turn out to be the very trucks that powell presented to the un in that report (the mobile bio factories)? does this add credibility to other areas of his report, or would it simply be a grand coincidence?

and your response:

about powell....yes indeed, if these trucks would have turned out the be the ones shown on the satellite pictures i would agree....but they didn'T.

at the time you thought there were no new truck finds (which there were), but either way, you agreed that other areas of his report would indeed gain credibility if the trucks turned out to be the very trucks that he presented to the u.n. now all you have to do is stand by your words if these biolabs are confirmed by the international inspectors.

aa

WoMD ... so where are they?

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