Michael the Archangel

by UnDisfellowshipped 159 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  UnDisfellowshipped

  Also, I apologize Joseph for not replying to all of your comments on the huge "Trinity" Thread a while back.

  In that Thread, you had claimed that 1st Timothy 2:5 "destroys the concept of the Trinity".

  1st Timothy 2:5: For there is One God, and One Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

  Please explain how that Verse "destroys the concept of the Trinity".

  You also said on the other Thread:
  

  That Jesus is aware of individuals and events does not make Jesus or God for that matter Omnipresent. How such things are done are detailed in scriptures. Angels spoke for God like the one in the burning bush and the use of such angels actually proves the opposite. Your statement that Jesus is Omnipresent is not truth and such words are not supported by the Faith or included in the message we are obligated to teach others. Here are but a few examples.

  It looks to me like you denied that the Supreme Being is Omnipresent. Is that correct?

  How then do you explain the Scripture where Jesus said He and the Father would come and be with believers?

  Exodus 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

  Acts 7:30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush.

  Exodus 14:19 And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them:

  Exodus 23:20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.

  Matthew 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

  Matthew 4:11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

  Information is both gathered and dispensed using intermediaries such as angels thus words like Omnipresent have no support in scripture and in fact are not found in it.

  So, now you also deny that the Father knows all things?

  You claim that the Father must send angels out to gather information for Him because He does not know all things?

  What kind of a god have you come up with Joseph?

  You have a god who cannot even gather His own information!

  How do the angels gather information? Can they read minds?

  Also, about the "Us" in Genesis:

  Genesis 11:5: Yahweh came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men built.
  Genesis 11:6: Yahweh said, "Behold, they are one people, and they have all one language; and this is what they begin to do. Now nothing will be withheld from them, which they intend to do.
  Genesis 11:7: Come, let Us go down, and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech."
  Genesis 11:8: So Yahweh scattered them abroad from there on the surface of all the earth. They stopped building the city.
  Genesis 11:9: Therefore the name of it was called Babel, because Yahweh confused the language of all the Earth, there. From there, Yahweh scattered them abroad on the surface of all the Earth.

  So, Joseph, how many created angels helped Yahweh confuse their languages?

  Why would Yahweh need help from created angels to confuse humans' languages?

  In fact, created angels could not confuse humans' languages because ONLY Yahweh has access to humans' hearts and minds.
• 

  JosephMalik

  Joseph,

  Joseph, in this very Thread, I already posted several Scriptures that show that Jesus Christ is YHWH, yet you completely ignored them, but I will go ahead and post them again (for the third time this Thread):

  Undisfellowshipped,

  You did not post anything that shows Jesus Christ is YHWH. Take this verse in Hebrews for instance.

  The Pre-Human Name of Jesus Christ was YAHWEH:

  Hebrews 1:10: And, "You, Lord [YAHWEH], in the beginning, laid the foundation of the Earth. The Heavens are the works of Your hands.

  This verse is not talking about planets or stars. It is talking about human beings and the governments that rule it in much the same way as Paul did in Col 1:15. You should have know this since such humanity and government will pass away and replaced by the kingdom which will totally absorb them. The literal heavens and stars will not pass away but such humanity and government will so the writer continues and says:

  11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

  Trinitarians simply do not understand scripture as shown here. It is humanity over which the Son rules as God that will be changed not the planets and stars. With this we have the writings of our Lord and the Apostle Paul who confirm this fact.

  Undisfellowshipped said: The Apostle Paul quoted Psalm 102:12 and 102:25 [a prayer to YAHWEH] and applied it directly to Jesus Christ.

  The scriptures are applied to Jesus as a Son as shown in Hebrews 1:8. The father is now delegating such responsibilities and has appointed the Son as the God of such resurrected humanity and kingdom that is under discussion. But the name of God or YHWH was not transferred as this name does NOT appear in Hebrews. This part of the psalm is not the same is it?

  :8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. {righteousness: Gr. rightness, or, straightness} 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

  I will not bother with the rest as it is all much the same. So not only is YHWH the God of Jesus, this same YHWH has appointed and authorized this Son to function in His place the same as if He were YHWH much the same as the angel in the burning bush did. And you go on and on like this as if matching texts without regard to such context proves your point? Nothing you said constitutes proof and you have failed to show that YHWY applies to the Logos, Jesus or the holy spirit as this name applies to God alone also known as the Father. It is the Fathers kingdom that the Son was given and will rule over for a limited period of time until the end when it is returned to the Father.

  Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples. 2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

  The Son has delegated authority from God and is not equal to God as shown. The trinity is not the truth and never was.

  Joseph
• 

  SwedishChef

  Joseph,
  
  Undis says that you said in another thread:
  
  1st Timothy 2:5 "destroys the concept of the Trinity".
  
  Care telling me how? It actually reinforces the concept of the Trinity. 1 Timothy 2:5 says "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;"
  
  There is but ONE mediator. Now read...
  
  Romans 8:26 "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered."
  
  Hmmm, here we see the Holy Spirit makes intercession, or is a mediator. But wait, there is only one mediator, and that is Christ. But it says here that the Holy Spirit is a mediator. Could it be that Christ and the Holy Spirit are one?
  
  Yes, this concept is taught in the Bible. Christ and the Holy Spirit are one.
  
  Here is another example of how Christ and the Spirit are one:
  
  John 14:16,17 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."
  
  Jesus says that the Holy Spirit shall dwell in the believer.
  
  18,20 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you...At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you."
  Now here in the same exact context, Christ says that "I will come to you", and "in you".
  
  Now we see that the Holy Spirit and Christ make intersession, and dwells in us. If the Holy Spirit dwells in us, then Christ does also. These Two are One.
  
  1 Corinthians 3:16 "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?"
  
  We are the temple of God, and His Spirit dwells in us, which is the Holy Spirit. And if the Holy Spirit dwells in us, then Christ dwells in us. God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are One.
• 

  SwedishChef

  Joseph,
  
  You never did refute Zechariah 12:10:
  
  "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."
  
  Here Jehovah describes Himself as being pierced. You will have a hard time trying to explain this away.
  
  John 19:34-37 "But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced."
  
  Jesus is Jehovah.

  Edited by - SwedishChef on 2 February 2003 23:15:0
• 

  UnDisfellowshipped

  Joseph,

  Thanks for your response.

  You said:
  

  Undisfellowshipped,

  You did not post anything that shows Jesus Christ is YHWH. Take this verse in Hebrews for instance.

  The Pre-Human Name of Jesus Christ was YAHWEH:

  Hebrews 1:10: And, "You, Lord [YAHWEH], in the beginning, laid the foundation of the Earth. The Heavens are the works of Your hands.

  This verse is not talking about planets or stars. It is talking about human beings and the governments that rule it in much the same way as Paul did in Col 1:15. You should have know this since such humanity and government will pass away and replaced by the kingdom which will totally absorb them.

  Can you prove using Scripture that Hebrews 1:10 is not speaking of the literal Universe? How do you know that God is not going to change the literal Universe?

  Anyway, that was not the point I was making, Joseph.

  And, since that was not my point, I am going to go along with what you said -- that "the Heavens and the Earth" in Hebrews 1:10 were governments and humans.

  The Scriptures that was quoted in Hebrews 1:10 is the following Verses:

  Psalm 102:21: That men may declare the Name of Yahweh in Zion, And His praise in Jerusalem;
  Psalm 102:22: When the peoples are gathered together, The kingdoms, to serve Yahweh.

  Psalm 102:25: Of old, You laid the foundation of the Earth. The Heavens are the work of Your hands.
  Psalm 102:26: They will perish, but You will endure. Yes, all of them will wear out like a garment. You will change them like a cloak, and they will be changed.
  Psalm 102:27: But You are the same. Your years will have no end.

  That was a Prayer TO Yahweh, but the Apostle Paul in Hebrews 1:10 says that it was addressed to JESUS!

  In Psalm 102:25-27, it is made extremely clear that YAHWEH created the Heavens and the Earth (which you say are humans and governments).

  However, since you claim that JESUS created the humans and governments and that Jesus is NOT Yahweh, then, once again you make Yahweh a LIAR.

  Hebrews 1:10 and Psalm 102:25-27 have completely disproved your claim that Yahweh did not create the humans and governments.

  Hebrews 1:10 declares plainly that Jesus IS Yahweh, who created "the Heavens and the Earth" (whether they are the literal Universe or humans and governments).

  Joseph said:
  

  Undisfellowshipped said: The Apostle Paul quoted Psalm 102:12 and 102:25 [a prayer to YAHWEH] and applied it directly to Jesus Christ.

  The scriptures are applied to Jesus as a Son as shown in Hebrews 1:8. The father is now delegating such responsibilities and has appointed the Son as the God of such resurrected humanity and kingdom that is under discussion.

  Psalm 102:25-27 says that Yahweh created the humans and governments.

  Hebrews 1:10 says that Jesus created the humans and governments.

  Explain that contradiction please.

  According to your beliefs, did the FATHER or the SON create the humans and governments?

  Joseph said:
  

  But the name of God or YHWH was not transferred as this name does NOT appear in Hebrews. This part of the psalm is not the same is it?

  This is a good one!

  And you say I don't know the Scriptures?

  To support your beliefs, you are now trying to claim that the Apostle Paul added something to the Psalm he quoted?

  It's interesting how you were able to look up the Setuagint in order to support your belief about Exodus 3:14, but you don't look it up for Psalm 102:25-27.

  In Hebrews 1:10, Paul was quoting from the Septuagint:

  Psalm 102:25: In the beginning You, O Lord, did lay the foundation of the Earth; and the Heavens are the works of Your hands.
  Psalm 102:26: They shall perish, but You remain: and they all shall wax old as a garment; and as a vesture shall You fold them, and they shall be changed.
  Psalm 102:27: But You are the same, and Your years shall not fail.

  Let me ask you -- is the Name Yahweh EVER mentioned in the Septuagint?

  Even in Psalm 83:18 and Exodus 3:15 the Septuagint DOES NOT have Yahweh:

  Psalm 83:18: And let them know that Your Name is Lord; that You alone are Most High over all the Earth.

  Exodus 3:15: And God said again to Moses, Thus shall you say to the sons of Israel, The Lord God of our fathers, the God of Abraam, and God of Isaac, and God of Jacob, has sent me to you: this is My Name for ever, and My Memorial to generations of generations.

  Throughout the entire Septuagint, YHWH is rendered as "Kyrios" ["Lord"].

  In the entire Chapter 102 of Psalms, in the Hebrew, NOWHERE does it contain Adonay [Lord], however the Hebrew does contain the Tetragrammaton [YHWH] several times in Psalm 102.

  So, Joseph, I ask you, in the Septuagint Version of Psalm 102:25, which Paul quoted in Hebrews 1:10, is "Lord" actually Yahweh?

  Joseph said:
  

  I will not bother with the rest as it is all much the same. So not only is YHWH the God of Jesus, this same YHWH has appointed and authorized this Son to function in His place the same as if He were YHWH much the same as the angel in the burning bush did. And you go on and on like this as if matching texts without regard to such context proves your point? Nothing you said constitutes proof and you have failed to show that YHWY applies to the Logos, Jesus or the holy spirit as this name applies to God alone also known as the Father. It is the Fathers kingdom that the Son was given and will rule over for a limited period of time until the end when it is returned to the Father.

  Joseph, you can continue to ignore and deny and lie against the Scriptural truths I have posted, but you will stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ, along with me and everyone else.

  You don't have to reply to the Scriptures I posted, but if you can refute the comments and Scriptures I posted, then what is there to fear from commenting on them?

  I have shown using the Scriptures that what you have claimed is false. In fact, it is blasphemy.

  Joseph said:
  

  Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples. 2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

  Since we're on the subject of prayer, explain why the Apostle Paul Prayed TO Jesus Christ:

  2nd Corinthians 12:8: Concerning this thing, I begged the Lord three times that it might depart from me.
  2nd Corinthians 12:9: He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My power is made perfect in weakness." Most gladly therefore I will rather glory in my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may rest on me.
  2nd Corinthians 12:10: Therefore I take pleasure in weaknesses, in injuries, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake. For when I am weak, then am I strong.

  The Son has delegated authority from God and is not equal to God as shown. The trinity is not the truth and never was.

  The Son was delegated the authority to create the governments and humans is what you have claimed, but Psalm 102:25-27 says that YAHWEH created the governments and humans.
• 

  JosephMalik

  Joseph,

  Thanks for your response.

  You said:

  Undisfellowshipped,

  You did not post anything that shows Jesus Christ is YHWH. Take this verse in Hebrews for instance.

  The Pre-Human Name of Jesus Christ was YAHWEH:

  Hebrews 1:10: And, "You, Lord [YAHWEH], in the beginning, laid the foundation of the Earth. The Heavens are the works of Your hands.

  This verse is not talking about planets or stars. It is talking about human beings and the governments that rule it in much the same way as Paul did in Col 1:15. You should have know this since such humanity and government will pass away and replaced by the kingdom which will totally absorb them.

  Can you prove using Scripture that Hebrews 1:10 is not speaking of the literal Universe? How do you know that God is not going to change the literal Universe?

  Undisfellowshipped,

  I have already proven this point and made the connection with the resurrection where we will be changed. This is known as a scriptural fact or truth. Your suggestion does not even have a foundation in scripture so that it should be considered. The normal process that alters the universe and may someday alter our solar system is not under discussion in these verses. And I have shown where and how authority is given to others to perform tasks for YHWH which you are also unable to counter. Thus verses must be taken out of context in Trinitarian theology and such truth must be suppressed. This is visible in the way you present data and apply texts. All this has been covered over and over. You cannot provide a name for the Holy Spirit, nor can you show that the name of the Son is YHWH. You cannot show that Michael is not the proper name for the Logos. That is all I needed to show anyone interested in this subject and they can come to their own conclusions. What we teach others is our responsibility as we will answer for it in the Judgment.

  Joseph

  Edited by - JosephMalik on 4 February 2003 11:14:36
• 

  JosephMalik

  Joseph,
  
  You never did refute Zechariah 12:10:
  
  SwedishChef,

  All this has been covered and it has been shown how YHWH can be represented personally by others. So scriptures especially prophetic ones can be fulfilled by such representatives. Therefore you have no proof that the representative is actually or literally the YHWH as you claim. After all the verses themselves were written by someone other than the YHWH to which they apply were they not? Would you claim that the author of the texts like Zechariah was also YHWH? As a representative of YHWH and heir to the house of David, the Son functioned in a capacity the same as if He was the God that uttered these words through Zechariah. So you have no case, no proof whatever for your views. Nothing regarding the trinity doctrine is the truth and the way Trinitarians distort and mis-apply scripture is as bad and even worse than the way the Watchtower misrepresents them.

  Joseph
• 

  UnDisfellowshipped

  Joseph,

  Thank you once again for your reply.

  I do sincerely apologize if I have upset you with any of my comments.

  You said to me:
  

  You cannot show that Michael is not the proper name for the Logos.

  However, Joseph, in order to show that that is a weak point, I say to you:

  You cannot show that Gabriel is not the proper name for the Logos.
• 

  UnDisfellowshipped

  Joseph said:
  

  I have already proven this point and made the connection with the resurrection where we will be changed. This is known as a scriptural fact or truth. Your suggestion does not even have a foundation in scripture so that it should be considered. The normal process that alters the universe and may someday alter our solar system is not under discussion in these verses.

  Joseph, I already pointed out in my post above on this page, that whether or not the literal Universe was being discussed in Hebrews 1:10 was not my point.

  In the post above, I even said that I would go along with your belief that "the Heavens and the Earth" in Hebrews 1:10 are humans and governments, and then I went into great detail in explaining what my point was.

  You 100% ignored my points.

  You also ignored the fact that I proved you were wrong about the Name "Yahweh" not being applied to Jesus in Hebrews 1:10.

  But, that is very typical of your posting style (at least in this Thread) -- "Ignore - Ignore - Ignore" and then "Accuse - Accuse - Accuse".

  Joseph, if you can refute my postings -- then WHY do you constantly IGNORE my main points, and comment on points other than the main issue?

  Joseph said:
  

  And I have shown where and how authority is given to others to perform tasks for YHWH which you are also unable to counter.

  Another falsehood. Go through this Thread -- I believe I have countered every point you have brought up.

  Joseph said:
  

  Thus verses must be taken out of context in Trinitarian theology and such truth must be suppressed. This is visible in the way you present data and apply texts. All this has been covered over and over.

  I could say the exact same things about you Joseph.

  However, I don't believe that you are intentionally trying to deceive people.

  You keep accusing me of "taking Verses out of context" but I don't think you have ever shown me where I have done this.

  PLEASE show me where I have done this. I truly do not EVER want to do this, and if you will PLEASE show me where I have done so, I will be sure to apologize and to try and make sure that I NEVER do so again.

  Joseph said:
  

  You cannot provide a name for the Holy Spirit

  I already did -- YHWH. I will post the Scriptures supporting this soon.

  Anyway -- why is it that you believe that the Holy Spirit must reveal His Name in order to be the Supreme Being?

  I asked you more than once to post the Scripture that says ONLY the Father can have the Name YHWH, yet you could not do so.

  Joseph said:
  

  nor can you show that the name of the Son is YHWH.

  I have done that at least 3 or 4 times in this Thread alone.

  Joseph said:
  

  You cannot show that Michael is not the proper name for the Logos.

  Well, Joseph, you cannot show that Michael IS the proper name for the Logos.

  Joseph said:
  

  That is all I needed to show anyone interested in this subject and they can come to their own conclusions. What we teach others is our responsibility as we will answer for it in the Judgment.

  I agree absolutely 100% totally!

  I will be extremely happy to let the readers of this Thread decide for themselves whether or not Jesus Christ is a created angel or the Supreme Being.

  The Scriptures say:

  Acts 17:10: The brothers immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Beroea. When they arrived, they went into the Jewish synagogue.
  Acts 17:11: Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the Word with all readiness of the mind, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

  1st Peter 3:15: But sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts; and always be ready to give an answer to everyone who asks you a reason concerning the hope that is in you, with humility and fear:
  1st Peter 3:16: having a good conscience; that, while you are spoken against as evildoers, they may be disappointed who revile your good manner of life in Christ.

  1st John 4:1: Beloved, don't believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

  1st Thessalonians 5:21: Test all things, and hold firmly that which is good.

  Revelation 2:2: "I know your works, and your toil and perseverance, and that you can't tolerate evil men, and have tested those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and found them false.

  Joseph said:
  

  SwedishChef,

  After all the verses themselves were written by someone other than the YHWH to which they apply were they not? Would you claim that the author of the texts like Zechariah was also YHWH?

  Interesting reasoning, Joseph.

  Why then, should we believe that YHWH ever personally did ANYTHING? How do you know that ALL of creation was not done by "representatives"?

  The Scriptures clearly say that it was The Holy Spirit who wrote the Bible through human agents. (Much like a secretary writing the things she heard from her boss)

  The Scriptures are the very Word of God.

  Correct me on this if I am wrong, but didn't all of the writers of the Scriptures clearly identify when YHWH is speaking, as opposed to themselves?

  Joseph said:
  

  As a representative of YHWH and heir to the house of David, the Son functioned in a capacity the same as if He was the God that uttered these words through Zechariah. So you have no case, no proof whatever for your views.

  Once again, I tell you that your "representatives" belief contradicts the 2nd of the 10 Commandments.

  Joseph said:
  

  Nothing regarding the trinity doctrine is the truth and the way Trinitarians distort and mis-apply scripture is as bad and even worse than the way the Watchtower misrepresents them.

  I truly feel sorry for you Joseph.

  I do have a Christian Love for you, and I have been praying to my Lord and God, Jesus, that He open your eyes so you can see the wonderful and blessed truth about Jesus Christ and also about our Holy Heavenly Father and our Comforter, The Holy Spirit.

  I do really enjoy your comments about the Watchtower Society and the SilentLambs, as well as other subjects, such as the Resurrection of Christ.

  May the Lord bless you and open your eyes Joseph
• 

  JosephMalik

  Undisfellowshipped,

  I responded to your points. You are the one that is ignoring the information presented. This thread is not going anywhere and anyone interested can go over it and see what is going on. The way you apply texts without regard to their context is very visible. And the fact that authority is give to others to act in the name of God directly is rejected by you even though it has been shown clearly.

  The trinity is not the truth and never was. It is a corruption of scripture and is the main reason why so many cannot understand it.

  Joseph

  Edited by - JosephMalik on 5 February 2003 8:48:2